引言

历史上经常有中学教师做出颠覆性创新的。

颠覆性成果挑战主流理论，往往来自不入流的作者和不入流的工作单位，能被发表就很幸运了，不可奢望发表在顶刊。

经典句子

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti1FU8gAs_M

Science isn't about publication in high-impact journals - Harold Varmus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YETmLPgeGT8

"There's a lot of rubbish published in high-profile journals" Paul Nurse, Nobel Laureate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T89NJxdPyBM

Paul Nurse: On judging researchers based on the journals they publish in

 we're all pleased to get into a high-profile journal but there's a lot of rubbish published in high-profile journal, really a lot of rubbish. institutions have to judge the quality of a person based on the quality of the research, you shouldn't be relying on journals and two or three reviewers to judge that

我们都很高兴能在备受瞩目的期刊发表论文，但顶级期刊上发表了很多垃圾，确实很多圾垃。机构必须根据研究的质量来判断一个人的质量，你不应该依赖期刊的档次和两三个审稿人来判断，

but you can get very high quality publications in journals that are not high profile. in my own career the very earliest work was often not published in the highest profile journals because it was people weren't interested in it

但你可以在不引人注目的期刊上发表非常高质量的文章。我自己的职业生涯中,最早的工作通常发不不到最引人注目的期刊上，因为当时人们我的工作不感兴趣。

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MffmKuvBHs

Impact factors? What counts is the data - Nobel Laureate Joseph Goldstein

what counts is really the data. any great paper is going to be found and read no matter where it's published.

数据才是真正的重要的，任何伟大的论文都会被发现并阅读，无论它在哪里发表。

actually some of this is sort of a trend right now which will as usual trends to go a little sort of fade away and when we'll go back to the way one looked at journals 15 years ago

实际上，这是现在的这种追求在顶刊发表文章的趋势必将消亡，回到我们15 年前人们看待期刊的时候。

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmTX6enxgd8

Do we need to rethink academic publishing? Nobel Laureate Aaron Ciechanover

the fact that we gotta fight like we take nature and we think that everybody is， everything that is published in nature or so is kind of the holy grail of science and it's the temple of science. it's a big mistake. but we made this God. so if we made this God, we are able to destroy it， right？ and we should destroy it. and I think that this is wrong with converted it to business and it's a money-making business. it's not only business, business, it's a money-making business.

事实上，我们必须与Nature这样的期刊抗争。我们认为每个人以及发表在Nathur之类刊物上的一切都是神圣的，把这些顶刊捧为科学的圣殿。这是一个很大的错误，但是这个上帝是我们自己创造的。如果我们自己制造了这个上帝，我们就能够推倒它，对吧？我们应该摧毁它，我认为将期刊转变为生意是错误的.它不仅是一个生意,这是一个赚钱的生意.

-----------

视频文件：

https://blog.sciencenet.cn/home.php?mod=attachment&id=1193923

Paul Nurse- On judging researchers based on the journals they publish in.mp4

Impact factors- What counts is the data - Nobel Laureate Joseph Goldstein.mp4

 Do we need to rethink academic publishing- Nobel Laureate Aaron Ciechanover.mp4

Paul Nurse- Nobel Prize Conversations - Nobel Prize Conversations on Acast.mp4

Don't miss Paul Nurse on the Nobel Prize Conversations podcast: https://play.acast.com/s/nobelprizeconversations/paulnurse-nobelprizeconversations

 扩展阅读：

https://www.sohu.com/a/423577113_788170

诺奖得主本庶佑：CNS这些顶刊观点有九成不正确，不要盲从迷信，

真正一流的工作往往没有发在顶刊上

现在，特别是在 年轻人中间，有一种倾向，认为文章发表在有名的刊物上就是一流的工作。确实，以前日本的学者在顶级刊物上发表的文章不多。但是， 与许多人的想象不同，真正一流的工作往往没有在顶级刊物上发表。这是因为， 一流的工作往往推翻了定论，因此不受人待见，评审员会给你提很多负面的意见，你的文章也上不了顶级刊物。迎合时代风向的文章比较容易被接受，否则的话， 需要花费较长时间才能获得认可。（2000年）

如果你的研究不能推翻定论，科学也就不能进步。当然，你的研究也不会载入史册。 学术的世界是保守的。如果你不按现有的定论来写论文，你的论文就很难获得肯定，你也会吃到不少苦头，但能够载入史册的研究都是这种研究。（2013年）

我认为，发表在CNS（Nature/Science/Cell）《细胞》《自然》和《科学》上的工作未必就是好研究， 倒是被《细胞》《自然》和《科学》拒绝的时候，你的研究或许才是真正一流的工作。你既然选择了做一名研究者，就应该力争打开新的局面，做别人从没有做过的工作，或力争将现有的定论推翻。研究者要认识到，这才是第一流的研究。我认为， 为了让论文更容易被知名刊物接收而做的研究，绝不会是很好的工作。（2000年）

我认为 《自然》《科学》这些杂志上的观点有九成是不正确的，论文发表十年之后，还能被认为是正确的只剩下一成。首先，不要相信论文里写的东西。对于研究，要一直钻研到眼见为实、让自己确信为止。这是我对科学采取的基本做法。也就是说，用自己的大脑思考，一直做到自己完全想通、完全认可为止。（2018年）

论文很重要，成果出来应尽快发表

在学术的世界里，论文非常重要。只靠口头发表，是不能获得国际的认定。也就是说，仅凭口头发表是不能拥有某个科学发现的优先权，人们不会因此认定这项工作是由你最早做出来的。所以， 研究成果一定要写成论文发表。… 学术有竞争，取得的研究成果，应该尽快写成论文，应该尽快投稿。

英汉对照 （机器翻译）

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti1FU8gAs_M

Science isn't about publication in high-impact journals - Harold Varmus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YETmLPgeGT8

"There's a lot of rubbish published in high-profile journals" Paul Nurse, Nobel Laureate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T89NJxdPyBM

Paul Nurse: On judging researchers based on the journals they publish in

institutions that promote or give money based entirely on whether

完全根据

a scientist has published in a

科学家是否在特定期刊上发表论文来宣传或提供资金的机构

particular journal

simply should be stopped um we're all

应该停止，嗯，我们都很

pleased to get into a high-profile

高兴能进入一本备受瞩目的

journal but there's a lot of rubbish

期刊，但

published in high-profile journal

在备受瞩目的期刊上发表了很多垃圾，这

really a lot of rubbish institutions

确实是一个 很多垃圾机构

have to judge

必须

the quality of a person based on the

根据研究的质量来判断一个人的质量，

quality of the research

you shouldn't be relying on journals and

你不应该依赖期刊和

two or three reviewers to judge that

两三个审稿人来判断，

you have to do that yourself and that

你必须自己做，这

means

意味着

you have to be intimate

你必须与

you have to know intimately the research

你亲密 必须深入了解正在进行的研究，

that's being done

so some people are not um publishing in

这样有些人就不会在最引人注目的期刊上发表文章，

the highest profile journals

because they're in advance of everybody

因为他们领先于

else some people

其他人有些人

um will not present it in the way where

不会以显而易见的方式呈现它

it is immediately obvious

some people will do what i said here

有些人会做什么 我在这里说

they will publish good work

他们会发表好的作品，

but actually it doesn't achieve the sexy

但实际上它并没有达到性感的

result

结果，

so i think that institutional leadership

所以我认为机构领导

has to make a judgment

必须

on the quality of the work and that you

对作品的质量做出判断，你

can do

可以做

you have to be close to it of course

你必须接近它当然

publications matter i'm not saying it

出版物 没关系，我不是说

doesn't

没有，

but you can get very high quality quali

但你可以在我自己的职业生涯中不引人注目的期刊上获得非常高质量的高质量

publications in

出版物。

journals that are not high profile in my own career the very earliest work was often not

最早的作品通常不会

published in the highest profile

在最引人注目的期刊上发表，

journals because it was

因为

people weren't interested in it

人们不这样做 对它感兴趣

 ================== 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MffmKuvBHs

Impact factors? What counts is the data - Nobel Laureate Joseph Goldstein

Transcript

i would say\N我想说的是，

what counts is really the data any\N数据才是真正的重要的，任何

great paper is going to be found and\N伟大的论文都会被发现并

read no matter\N阅读，无论

where it's published actually some of our \N它在哪里发表。实际上，我们的一些

best papers were published are published\N最好的论文发表

in the journal of biological chemistry\N在《生物化学》杂志上，

which by today's criteria would not be a\N按照今天的标准，这不会产生

a high impact\N很大的影响

uh journal and so i would say um\N嗯，期刊，所以我想说，嗯，

this is sort of a trend right now which\N这是现在的一种趋势，

will as usual trends to go a little sort of\N像往常一样，这种趋势会逐渐

fade away and when we'll go back to\N消失，当我们回到

the way one looked at journals 15 years ago\N15 年前人们看待期刊的方式时，

==================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmTX6enxgd8

Do we need to rethink academic publishing? Nobel Laureate Aaron Ciechanover

the fact publication or most of it is\N事实是，出版物或大部分都

in private hands maybe it's a mistake\N在私人手中，也许这是一个错误，

it's a mistake of our society and the\N这是我们社会的错误，

fact that we gotta fight like we take\N事实上，我们必须像与

nature and we think that everybody is，\N Nature期刊进行斗争，我们认为每个人都以为

everything that is published in nature\N Nathur发表的一切，

or so is kind of the holy grail of\N或者类似的是科学的圣杯，

science and it's the temple of science\N把Nature捧为科学的圣殿，

it's a big mistake but we made this God\N这是一个很大的错误，但我们创造了这个上帝，

so if we made this God we are able to destroy it \N所以如果我们创造了这个上帝，我们就能够

right and we should destroy it and I\N正确地摧毁它，我们应该摧毁它，我

think that this is wrong with converted\N认为将其转变为商业是错误的，

it to business and it's a money-making\N这是一个赚钱的

business. it's not only business business\N生意，它不仅是一个赚钱的生意，

it's a money-making business and it's\N这是一个赚钱的生意，这是

not right that you here in this\N不对的，在这个

Institute have to pay every year\N研究所里的你们每年必须支付

millions of dollars in order to read\N数百万美元才能阅读

what you wrote yourself or your friends\N你自己写的或你的朋友

or me wrote. we share common values. I am\N或我写的东西 拥有共同的价值观 我是

a scientist, you are a scientist, we share\N一名科学家 你是一名科学家 我们拥有

common values and therefore everything\N共同的价值观，因此一切都

should be open\N应该开放

====================

Don't miss Paul Nurse on the Nobel Prize Conversations podcast: https://play.acast.com/s/nobelprizeconversations/paulnurse-nobelprizeconversations

When we come to the politicians, people often say, well, what we need is more scientists

当我们谈到政治家时，人们经常说，好吧，我们需要的是更多的科学家

in political leadership positions.

担任政治领导职务。

This is Nobel Prize conversations and you just heard 2001 medicine laureate Paul Nurse.

这是诺贝尔奖对话，您刚刚听到了 2001 年医学奖得主保罗·纳斯 (Paul Nurse) 的讲话。

But I actually don't think we have to have that. I think that we just have to have a

但我实际上认为我们不必这样做。我认为我们只需要有一个

political class that is prepared to listen to science and to understand what it is and

准备聆听科学并理解科学是什么的政治阶层

not retreat into populist one liners.

不退回到民粹主义的一派。

Politicians may say they want to follow the science, but Paul Nurse is a man who knows

政治家可能会说他们想遵循科学，但保罗·纳斯是一个知道的人

how to lead it. He sees leadership as a duty and has served as the president of the Royal

如何引导它。他将领导视为一种责任，并曾担任皇家主席

Society and as the first director of the Francis Crick Institute for Biomedical Research.

学会并担任弗朗西斯·克里克生物医学研究所的第一任所长。

For his own research, he shared the 2001 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine with Tim Hunt

凭借自己的研究，他与蒂姆·亨特分享了 2001 年诺贝尔生理学或医学奖

and Leland Hartwell for discoveries of key regulators of the cell cycle.

和利兰·哈特韦尔 (Leland Hartwell) 发现细胞周期的关键调节因子。

Nobel Prize Conversations is produced with the support of our Nobel International partners

诺贝尔奖对话是在我们的诺贝尔国际合作伙伴的支持下举办的

3M, ABB, Ericsson and Scania. Your host is Adam Smith, Chief Scientific Officer at Nobel

3M、ABB、爱立信和斯堪尼亚。您的主持人是诺贝尔首席科学官亚当·斯密 (Adam Smith)

Prize Outreach. Now let's hear our conversation with Paul Nurse. We'll start via the exit,

有奖推广。现在让我们来听听我们与保罗·纳斯的对话。我们将从出口开始，

Brexit.

英国脱欧。

It's a kind of funny time to be speaking right now anyway, because it's so worrying. The

无论如何，现在说话是一种有趣的时刻，因为它太令人担忧了。这

second wave of the pandemic really seem to seeming to take hold in Europe, in the UK,

第二波大流行似乎确实在欧洲、英国蔓延，

in particular Brexit about to loom large. You're such an optimistic person. I've always

尤其是英国脱欧即将成为焦点。你真是一个乐观的人。我一直

admired and loved your optimism. It must be hard to be optimistic just at this moment.

钦佩并喜欢你的乐观精神。此刻想必很难乐观。

Well I think it is difficult. I mean, we are particularly in the UK. We have the coronavirus,

嗯，我认为这很难。我的意思是，我们尤其是在英国。我们有冠状病毒，

which is not only damaging the economy and all other activities, including research activities,

这不仅损害了经济和所有其他活动，包括研究活动，

but also is getting a bit depressing. There's a sort of malaise and that's something that's

但也变得有点沮丧。有一种不适，那就是

national. I feel it a little bit in our Institute, although my Institute here, the Francis Crick

国家的。我在我们研究所感受到了一点，虽然我的研究所在这里，弗朗西斯·克里克

Institute is working at almost 100% capacity. So we're very privileged. But then that's

研究所几乎以 100% 的产能运转。所以我们非常荣幸。但那就是

combined with Brexit. The country was really split 50-50 about whether the UK should leave

与英国脱欧相结合。对于英国是否应该脱欧，全国人民确实存在 50 比 50 的分歧

the European Union or not. And if we'd have sort of accepted that decision that the electorate

欧盟与否。如果我们接受了选民的决定

voted to leave, but it was so split that it should be a very gentle leave, that's been

投票决定离开，但分歧如此之大，这应该是一次非常温和的离开，那就是

completely ignored because what we've got is actually almost as extreme response as

完全被忽略，因为我们得到的实际上几乎和

possible with possibly a no deal whatsoever, which for sure is going to also very significantly

可能没有任何协议，这肯定也会非常重要

damage our economy, probably between 5% and 10%, the economists tell me. I know it's difficult

经济学家告诉我，对我们经济的损害可能在 5% 到 10% 之间。我知道这很难

to predict these things, but between 5% and 10%. So you're right, it's a bit depressing.

预测这些事情，但在 5% 到 10% 之间。所以你是对的，这有点令人沮丧。

However, you're right, I'm an optimist. We will get through it. We may be damaged for

不过，你是对的，我是一个乐观主义者。我们会渡过难关的。我们可能会因

a while, but we will prevail in the end. But I think you're right, it's going to be a bit

虽然会持续一段时间，但我们最终会取得胜利。但我认为你是对的，这会有点

of a rough several years.

艰难的几年。

Yeah, we need optimism like yours to keep us going though. That malaise has several

是的，我们需要像您一样的乐观精神来让我们继续前进。这种不适有几个

threads to it that you mentioned. Let's sort of pick up on some of them. First of all,

您提到的线程。让我们来了解一下其中的一些。首先，

Brexit easily dealt with, I suppose, but it's going to be blow for science, isn't it?

我想，英国脱欧很容易解决，但这对科学来说将是一个打击，不是吗？

It is. I mean, the starting point is the economy and of course, science depends upon financial

这是。我的意思是，出发点是经济，当然，科学取决于金融

support and I mean, it's not that cheap. So it does require healthy economies to get the

支持，我的意思是，它并不便宜。因此，确实需要健康的经济才能获得

right investment into science. So that's one part of it. Perhaps more, I was going to say

对科学的正确投资。这就是其中的一部分。也许更多，我想说

more important part, I mean, it certainly equal, I would say to the financial difficulties

更重要的部分，我的意思是，它当然等同于财务困难

is the image of what we in our country, the UK is presenting to the rest of the world,

是我们国家、英国向世界其他地方展示的形象，

because Brexit has around it an aura of turning your back on the rest of the world. I know

因为英国脱欧笼罩着一种背弃世界其他国家的光环。我知道

it's not always seen as that is turning back on Europe, but actually it's turning back

人们并不总是认为这是欧洲的倒退，但实际上它正在倒退

on the rest of the world and also for that matter, turning back the clock to a time which

对于世界其他地方，也就此而言，将时钟拨回一个时间

no longer exists, a sort of nostalgia. So we have a combination of turning away and

不再存在，一种怀旧。所以我们有转身离开和

turning back clocks, which require perhaps a bit of education for our whole nation, including

时光倒流，这可能需要对我们整个国家进行一些教育，包括

our political leaders, because I have no doubt that we will return to the European Union

我们的政治领导人，因为我毫不怀疑我们将重返欧盟

and I have no doubt that the shock of cold water that we're about to endanger ourselves

我毫不怀疑我们即将面临的冷水冲击

with will be a correction to that and we may get a more realistic position in the world.

这将是对此的修正，我们可能会在世界上获得更现实的地位。

But back to science, I mean, the UK is very good at science, but science is highly international

但回到科学，我的意思是，英国在科学方面非常擅长，但科学是高度国际化的

and this turning away from the rest of the world is not good for it. Once again, because

远离世界其他地方对其不利。再一次，因为

I'm an optimist, we will get through it. We will work out informal relationships with

我是一个乐观主义者，我们会渡过难关的。我们将与以下人士建立非正式关系

other countries in Europe, on continental Europe, and we will get through it. But I

在欧洲的其他国家，在欧洲大陆，我们会度过难关。但是我

can't say that it is the best position to be for maintaining a very high quality science

不能说这是维持高质量科学的最佳位置

endeavor.

努力。

It's interesting because at this particular time, of course, politicians are worldwide

这很有趣，因为在这个特定的时间，当然，政治家遍布世界各地

saying they're being led by the scientists and the science in respect to the pandemic,

说他们是在科学家和科学的指导下应对这一流行病的，

obviously not over Brexit. And that brings us to this question of the conversation between

显然不是因为英国脱欧。这就引出了我们之间对话的问题

scientists and politicians. How much do you think that statement that governments are

科学家和政治家。您认为政府的说法在多大程度上是

being led by scientists is true these days?

如今由科学家领导是真的吗？

Well, I think politicians are saying that and I think they meant it, or at least those

嗯，我认为政客们是这么说的，而且我认为他们是认真的，或者至少是那些

that said they were following the science. There's some politicians in the world who

这表明他们遵循科学。世界上有一些政客

didn't even pretend they were doing that. I mean, Mr. Trump would be one and Brazil

甚至没有假装他们正在这样做。我的意思是，特朗普先生就是其中之一，而巴西

would be another, for example. But I think they meant it. But there was a certain naivety,

例如，将是另一个。但我认为他们是认真的。但也有一定的天真，

perhaps, in the politicians who said it, that they don't fully understand how science works.

或许，在政治家们看来，他们并不完全理解科学是如何运作的。

And I think it's worth explaining that a bit more clearly. We are taught science at school

我认为值得更清楚地解释这一点。我们在学校教授科学

like its statements are chiseled in granite on a piece of stone. And of course, that is

就像它的陈述被凿在一块石头上的花岗岩上一样。当然，那就是

the case for certain parts of science, quite a lot of science, like, for example, Newton's

对于科学的某些部分来说，相当多的科学，例如牛顿的科学

laws of motion certainly work unless you get very fast and they work extremely well. But

运动定律当然有效，除非你速度非常快并且它们工作得非常好。但

they've been tested endlessly for 300 years and been found to work. When we're faced with

300 年来，它们经过不断的测试，并被证明是有效的。当我们面临

research problems, we often haven't got a clue how anything works. And we get it wrong

研究问题时，我们常常不知道事情是如何运作的。我们错了

quite a lot of the time until we get it right. And the whole process of science, certainly

花了很多时间，直到我们把事情做对为止。当然，整个科学过程

what was emphasised by Karl Popper, for example, the philosopher of science, is that you come

例如，科学哲学家卡尔·波普尔（Karl Popper）强调的是，你来

up with a hypothesis, an idea, you try and test it to destruction. And if it's destroyed,

有了一个假设、一个想法，你就尝试并彻底检验它。而如果它被毁了，

you move on with the knowledge that that isn't the right way forward and look at something

你知道这不是正确的前进方向，然后继续看一些东西

else. And so there's a lot of testing and then changing one's mind. And then over time,

别的。因此，需要进行大量测试，然后改变主意。然后随着时间的推移，

certainties emerge, but they don't always emerge straight away. Now, when you're faced

确定性会出现，但它们并不总是立即出现。现在，当你面对

with something that's very important to society, like a pandemic, society suddenly wants to

对于对社会非常重要的事情，比如流行病，社会突然想要

have all the answers 100% crystal clear. And they think of Newton's laws of motion, when

所有答案都 100% 清晰。他们想到了牛顿运动定律，当

actually scientists don't really know what's going on. And there's different opinions about

事实上科学家并不真正知道发生了什么。并且有不同的看法

science because of that uncertainty. So when a politician gets up and says, we are following

科学是因为这种不确定性。因此，当一位政客站起来说，我们正在追随

the science, the question has to be what science? Because there's more than one scientific conclusion

科学，问题是什么科学？因为科学结论不止一个

out there at this moment. And they are all not unreasonable, or some of them are extremely

此时此刻。而且它们都不是没有道理的，或者说有些是极其不合理的。

unreasonable, like those that suggest 5G is the cause of coronavirus. But there's quite

不合理，比如那些认为 5G 是冠状病毒的原因的说法。但有相当

a lot of very sensible people saying rather different things. And the poor old politicians

很多非常明智的人都在说不同的话。还有那些可怜的老政客

got to sort of make sense of this. And it's not made easier if they think all scientists

必须弄清楚这一点。如果他们认为所有科学家都认为事情不会变得更容易

are talking with the voice of God, because at that stage, they are absolutely not. And

正在用神的声音说话，因为在那个阶段，他们绝对不是。和

it's going to change. So what does all this mean? I think it requires a more sophisticated

它将会改变。那么，这意味着什么？我认为这需要更复杂的

relationship between science advice, and the politicians and political leaders being advised

科学建议与接受建议的政治家和政治领导人之间的关系

by it. Scientists have to emphasize that knowledge is often tentative at this stage of an understanding,

通过它。科学家必须强调，在这个理解阶段，知识往往是尝试性的，

particularly in a pandemic. It may change. And they shouldn't be overconfident about

尤其是在大流行期间。它可能会改变。他们不应该过度自信

what they're actually saying. And scientists are perhaps not used to talking in the public

他们实际上在说什么。科学家们或许不习惯在公共场合讲话

sphere so much in this very, very public way. And we're used to disagreeing with each other

以这种非常非常公开的方式进行如此多的领域。我们也习惯了彼此意见不合

in academia and in the scientific discourse. But it doesn't play out quite as nicely on

在学术界和科学话语中。但它的表现并不那么好

the public stage. And politicians are to be forgiven if they take certain ideas away.

公共舞台。如果政客们剥夺了某些想法，也是可以原谅的。

Then when you combine it with the fact that these have immediate political consequences,

然后当你将其与这些具有直接政治后果的事实结合起来时，

by which I mean that whether you have a lockdown or you don't, has economic consequences that

我的意思是，无论是否实施封锁，都会产生以下经济后果：

we have to think about, as well as health consequences. And then you'll find those in

我们必须考虑以及健康后果。然后你会发现那些

different places in the political spectrum will have opinions about how important they

政治领域的不同地方会对它们的重要性有不同的看法

think the health of the nation is versus perhaps the health of the economy in the nation. Then

认为国家的健康状况可能与国家经济的健康状况有关。然后

what they do is start challenging those scientific opinions, which don't happen to agree with

他们所做的就是开始挑战那些恰好与他们不一致的科学观点

their political views. So the whole science endeavor gets mixed up with political opinions.

他们的政治观点。因此，整个科学事业与政治观点混在一起。

And that's really a bit of dangerous for the scientific endeavor. I've always argued as

这对于科学事业来说确实有点危险。我一直认为

much as possible, and I know it's very difficult and we can't always get it to work, is we

尽可能多，我知道这非常困难，我们不能总是让它发挥作用，是吗？

should keep politics out of it as much as we can. I mean, we're, you know, all human

我们应该尽可能地将政治排除在外。我的意思是，你知道，我们都是人类

beings are political to some extent, so I fully accept that. But when politics starts

生命在某种程度上是政治性的，所以我完全接受这一点。但当政治开始时

driving which science you listen to, you're in trouble. We saw that with climate change,

如果你听从哪一种科学，那么你就有麻烦了。我们看到，随着气候变化，

for example, and where politics was certainly driving it. We see it now as to whether we

例如，政治无疑是推动这一趋势的地方。我们现在看到的是我们是否

open up the economy or whether we try and protect health. Basically, we should try and

开放经济还是我们是否努力保护健康。基本上，我们应该尝试

keep the different opinions of science out there and then let our political leaders who

将科学上的不同观点保留下来，然后让我们的政治领导人

were elected to do this to make sense of it. But what they have to do is not say we're

被选中这样做是为了理解它。但他们要做的不是说我们

following the science. They should say science tells us that there's one, two, three possibilities

遵循科学。他们应该说科学告诉我们有一种、两种、三种可能性

going on. We have decided to go for option one. And these are the reasons we've done

正在进行中。我们决定选择方案一。这些就是我们这样做的原因

it because of scientific opinions and because of the political consequences of it. And this

这是因为科学观点及其政治后果。和这个

may change as our knowledge increases. Now, that isn't a tabloid headline one liner. It

可能会随着我们知识的增长而改变。现在，这不是小报的头条新闻。它

doesn't go down well with the politicians or their communicators. But that's what we

政客或其传播者不太喜欢。但这就是我们

have to do if we're going to have a mature relationship between science and politics.

如果我们要在科学与政治之间建立成熟的关系，就必须这样做。

It's funny, isn't it? Because I think people in their own decision making at home, just

很有趣，不是吗？因为我认为人们在家里自己做决定时，只是

the questions of every day, are very sophisticated in the way they think about what needs the

每天的问题，他们思考需要什么的方式非常复杂

different aspects of each decision. But then perhaps it's a misconception that people just

每个决定的不同方面。但也许这是一个误解，人们只是

want simple stories from their leaders, whereas perhaps they're much more equipped to deal

希望从他们的领导者那里听到简单的故事，而也许他们更有能力应对

with sophisticated argument than people give them credit for.

他们的论点比人们想象的还要复杂。

Well, I'm in the same position as you. I think we need to treat the public with much greater

嗯，我和你的处境一样。我认为我们需要以更大的力度对待公众

respect. And I think they will respond to it. Of course, you have to use language that

尊重。我认为他们会对此做出回应。当然，你必须使用这样的语言

isn't so loaded with specialist terms that it is incomprehensible. Of course, you have

并没有充斥着难以理解的专业术语。当然，你有

to work on communicating the clearer messages. But frankly, it's not that difficult to do

致力于传达更清晰的信息。但说实话，这并不难做到

that. We don't need to know, is it SARS blah, blah, blah, or SARS something else? You don't

那。我们不需要知道，这到底是非典，还是非典，还是别的什么？你不

need to know that. You need to know what the problems are and how you're dealing with it

需要知道这一点。您需要知道问题是什么以及如何处理它

and how we might get somewhere. We also can't have this, I'm an optimist, this relentless

以及我们如何到达某个地方。我们也不能这样，我是乐观主义者，这样无情

optimism that we're doing the best thing in the world. We're going to have a vaccine by

乐观地认为我们正在做世界上最好的事情。我们将在

September. We're going to have a treatment next week. We're going to have an app that

九月。下周我们将接受治疗。我们将有一个应用程序

will solve it. And then within days, it collapses. How can you trust the politician or their

会解决它。然后几天之内，它就崩溃了。你怎么能相信政客或他们的人呢？

advisors when we have to listen to that sort of nonsense? So treat the public seriously.

顾问什么时候我们必须听这种废话？所以认真对待公众。

You have to explain it simply. It cannot be just one single headline. That's the populace.

你必须简单地解释一下。它不能只是一个标题。这就是民众。

In a way, you could say both Brexit and the response to the virus are maybe made worse

在某种程度上，你可以说英国脱欧和对病毒的反应都可能变得更糟

by populism, the notion that you don't actually really explain things. You respond to popular

民粹主义认为，你实际上并没有真正解释事情。你回应流行

emotion and you just deal with populist remarks. So you have in the case of Brexit, get Brexit

情绪，而你只处理民粹主义言论。所以，在英国脱欧的情况下，就脱欧吧

done. Well, yes, we've got Brexit done. We're out. But we certainly haven't got any way

完毕。嗯，是的，我们已经完成了英国脱欧。我们出去了。但我们确实没有办法

of working in a new Brexit country. I was waiting for get COVID done. I'm waiting for

在一个新的脱欧国家工作。我一直在等待新冠疫情的解决。我在等

that to come out, but that's not yet happened. But I think there could be a relationship

即将发布，但这还没有发生。但我认为可能存在某种关系

between the way that the pandemic is being handled. And of course, I'm talking in the

处理大流行病的方式之间。当然，我说的是

UK environment and the way that both COVID and Brexit have been handled because they

英国的环境以及处理新冠疫情和英国脱欧的方式，因为它们

reflect some of the stark weaknesses of populism.

反映了民粹主义的一些明显弱点。

Yes, you pointed out at the beginning of that, that when you're taught science in school,

是的，你在一开始就指出，当你在学校教授科学时，

it's as if it's chiseled in stone. And is part of the problem that the politicians themselves

就像是凿在石头上一样。这是政客们自己的问题的一部分

have really not got the basic science education that allows them to understand the nature

确实没有接受过让他们了解自然的基础科学教育

of science, because what you're asking them to do is to represent the true nature of how

科学，因为你要求他们做的是代表科学的真实本质

scientific thought advances. Are they equipped to do that? Who can help them do that?

科学思想不断进步。他们有能力做到这一点吗？谁能帮助他们做到这一点？

Well, first of all, I think it's a responsibility of the educational system to communicate what

嗯，首先，我认为教育系统有责任传达什么

science is. It's not just a collection of facts, like there are eight planets and we're

科学群岛这不仅仅是事实的集合，就像有八颗行星，而我们是

93 million miles away from the sun or whatever. It's also about how science is done. And the

距太阳或其他什么地方9300万英里。这也与科学如何进行有关。还有

words I quite like, at least at the frontiers of science, is that science is often tentative

我非常喜欢的话，至少在科学前沿，是科学往往是尝试性的

knowledge being tested and being changed. And communicating that message will help subsequent

知识正在被测试和改变。传达该信息将有助于后续

communications of very difficult issues such as this pandemic. So it's not just the politicians,

就这一流行病等非常困难的问题进行沟通。所以不仅仅是政治家，

I'll come to them in a moment, but it is actually all of society. And given that our lives are

我稍后会谈到他们，但这实际上是整个社会。鉴于我们的生活

more and more ruled by technologies which are based on science and things that we can

越来越多地受到基于科学和我们可以做到的事情的技术的统治

now do as a consequence of knowledge of science and thinking in medicine and so on, these

现在，由于科学知识和医学思维等的结果，这些

problems, these issues about when somebody is alive or dead and all these sorts of issues,

问题，这些关于某人何时活着或死亡的问题以及所有这些问题，

they're going to increase, they're not going to decrease. So we need a community, a society

它们会增加，不会减少。所以我们需要一个社区、一个社会

that understands this. When we come to the politicians, people often say, well, what

明白这一点。当我们谈到政客时，人们经常说，好吧，什么？

we need is more scientists in political leadership positions. And of course, we do have some

我们需要更多的科学家担任政治领导职务。当然，我们确实有一些

like Angela Merkel understands what science is because she's a scientist. But I actually

就像安吉拉·默克尔（Angela Merkel）了解科学是什么一样，因为她是一名科学家。但我其实

don't think we have to have that. I think that we just have to have a political class

我认为我们不必这样。我认为我们只需要上一堂政治课

that is prepared to listen to science and to understand what it is and not retreat into

准备好倾听科学并理解它是什么，而不是退缩到

populist one liners. They've got to absorb the complexities. Politicians have to absorb

民粹主义一班线。他们必须吸收复杂性。政治家必须吸收

all sorts of complexities, put it together to make a decision. It's not just science,

各种复杂的情况综合起来才能做出决定。这不仅仅是科学，

economics, it's social sciences as well and behavioral sciences. They are there to integrate

经济学，还有社会科学和行为科学。他们的存在是为了整合

that and to come to decisions. But if they simply retreat into we're following the science,

并做出决定。但如果他们只是退回到我们所遵循的科学，

this is the headline, now we'll go away and just trust us. That isn't going to work. And

这是标题，现在我们要离开并相信我们。那是行不通的。和

what we have seen in the pandemic, certainly in the UK, but I sense it throughout the world,

我们在大流行中看到的情况，当然是在英国，但我在全世界都感受到了这一点，

is a gradual loss of trust in both the political class and the science advice that they're

是对政治阶层和他们所提出的科学建议逐渐失去信任

getting because they don't understand just what we're talking about here about the tentative

因为他们不明白我们在这里谈论的暂定是什么

nature of science. So we are damaging what is going to be crucial, I would say that is

科学的本质。所以我们正在破坏至关重要的东西，我想说的是

the interaction between science and politics in the future by not being sophisticated enough

未来科学与政治的互动还不够成熟

in understanding that relationship. What does it really mean to be alive? Paul

在理解这种关系的过程中。活着的真正意义是什么？保罗

Nurse takes on this and other tough scientific questions in his recent book entitled What

纳斯在他最近的书《什么》中回答了这个问题和其他棘手的科学问题

is Life? Understanding Biology in Five Steps. The book shares its title with a work by another

是生命？五步了解生物学。这本书与另一本书同名

Nobel laureate, Erwin Schrödinger. That 1944 version of What is Life? inspired a generation

诺贝尔奖获得者埃尔文·薛定谔。 1944 年版本的《生命是什么？》激励了一代人

of scientists, including Paul Nurse, who first read it as a schoolboy.

包括保罗·纳斯（Paul Nurse）在内的众多科学家，他在还是个小学生的时候就第一次读到了这本书。

First of all, that question, what is life? It's a question that many have thought about

首先要问一个问题，生命是什么？是很多人都思考过的问题

in the past. We all think of Erwin Schrödinger. What is so fascinating to you about that question,

在过去。我们都会想到埃尔文·薛定谔。这个问题对你来说如此吸引人，

what is life? I think that it's the key question in biology

生活是什么？我认为这是生物学的关键问题

really. And it is so key. It's almost the question that we never ask after we get in

真的。这非常关键。这几乎是我们进来之后就不再问的问题

school the age of 16, there will be some chapter in a book on what is life, and then we forget

16岁上学的时候，书上会有一些章节讲什么是生活，然后我们就忘记了

about it. And I wanted to return to it, having been a biologist for very many years, and

关于它。我想回到这个话题，作为一名生物学家已经很多年了，

address it. So part of it was that. Part of it was that it's a question that I wanted

解决它。部分原因就是这样。部分原因是这是我想问的问题

as many of the public to think about who could be bothered to read the book. In other words,

让许多公众思考谁会费心去读这本书。换句话说，

I haven't written this book for my peers. Schrödinger's book was probably a bit tricky

我没有为我的同龄人写这本书。薛定谔的书可能有点棘手

for the general public. I'll say yes. Yeah.

对于普通大众。我会说是的。是的。

You know, aperiodic crystals and so on. Mine is, I hope I don't avoid difficult issues,

你知道，非周期性晶体等等。我的想法是，我希望我不要回避困难的问题，

but it is really written for people who are prepared to commit time to it. But I think

但这确实是为那些准备投入时间的人而写的。但我觉得

many people could understand, not perhaps everybody, but many could. So I wrote for

很多人都能理解，也许不是每个人，但很多人都能理解。所以我写了

an audience of, I was always thinking of a 17-year-old thinking about the world, but

作为观众，我一直在思考一个17岁的人对世界的思考，但是

actually written in a way that I hope would cover a much wider range of the public than

实际上，我希望以一种能够覆盖更广泛公众的方式来编写

a more academic term. So it's not academic in that sense. It does deal with concepts

一个更学术的术语。所以从这个意义上说它不是学术的。它确实涉及概念

that will last. I mean, what is striking is some of these ideas are centuries old. And

这会持续下去。我的意思是，引人注目的是其中一些想法已有几个世纪的历史。和

I find that a lot of science popular books are just always looking around the corner,

我发现很多科普书籍总是在转角处寻找，

just over the horizon. And usually they fade away. They get it wrong. They're predicting

就在地平线上。通常它们会消失。他们弄错了。他们正在预测

this, that, or the other, and nothing happens. This book I've written just like Schrödinger's

这个、那个或其他，但什么也没有发生。我写的这本书就像薛定谔的书一样

really, although as I said, it's a more for the general reader, I suspect could still

真的，虽然正如我所说，这更适合普通读者，但我怀疑仍然可以

be reading 30 or 40 years, and it would still have value because of the way it's written.

即使读了 30 年或 40 年，它仍然具有价值，因为它的写作方式。

I'd hazard to say that it would last considerably longer than that, because as you say, it's

我敢说它的持续时间会比这长得多，因为正如你所说，它是

rooted in deep history, centuries of science. And you define these fundamental principles

植根于深厚的历史和几个世纪的科学。你定义了这些基本原则

of life, which are not going to go away. I wanted to ask about one of those. I think

生命的一部分，这些都不会消失。我想问其中之一。我认为

it's your final principle, the interconnectedness of life. It's a nice one. Talk about that.

这是你的最终原则，生活的相互联系。这是一个很好的。谈谈那个。

Well, I will talk about it. Because unusually for molecular cellular biologists, I do talk

好吧，我会谈谈它。因为对于分子细胞生物学家来说这是不寻常的，我确实谈论

about the biosphere and the importance of maintaining a healthy biosphere if we're to

关于生物圈以及维持健康的生物圈的重要性，如果我们要

maintain a healthy life. And that's very popular. The ecologists will talk about it. Naturists

保持健康的生活。这很受欢迎。生态学家会谈论它。裸体主义者

like David Attenborough are doing a fantastic job on it. You don't, however, get quite the

像大卫·阿滕伯勒（David Attenborough）在这方面做得非常出色。然而，你并没有完全明白

same emphasis on it from a molecular cellular biologist who tends to talk about medicine

倾向于谈论医学的分子细胞生物学家也同样强调这一点

or whatever. They don't broaden it into this sphere of activity. But what struck me, it

管他呢。他们没有将其扩展到这个活动领域。但让我印象深刻的是

was two principles, really. One is evolution by natural selection. And what Darwin said,

确实有两个原则。一是自然选择的进化。达尔文说过，

we're all related by descent. What that meant is we're connected to all life on the planet

我们都有血缘关系。这意味着我们与地球上的所有生命都有联系

because there are relatives, is how I like to put it. I mean, it sounds sort of a bit

因为有亲戚，这是我喜欢说的。我的意思是，听起来有点

corny. But obviously, we're a relative of a gorilla or a chimpanzee or an orangutan.

陈词滥调。但显然，我们是大猩猩、黑猩猩或猩猩的亲戚。

You can see that. But in reality, we're related to everything. It's just that some of the

你可以看到这一点。但事实上，我们与一切都息息相关。只是其中一些

biosphere around us, we diverged a very long time ago. And I make the comparison with the

我们周围的生物圈，我们很久以前就分道扬镳了。我与

yeast I've worked on. And of course, it's 1,500 million years, which is quite a long

我研究过的酵母。当然，有15亿年，这是一个相当长的时间。

time. So these are our relatives. And therefore, if we consider ourselves to be, and some would

时间。所以这些都是我们的亲戚。因此，如果我们认为自己是，有些人会

argue that we shouldn't think that way, but if we consider ourselves to be the peak of

认为我们不应该这样想，但如果我们认为自己是巅峰

evolution that we have on the planet, then we have a responsibility for all our relatives

我们在地球上拥有的进化，那么我们对我们所有的亲戚都有责任

on our planet. Then the second point, the one that you mentioned, is that not only are

在我们的星球上。那么第二点，也就是你提到的，不仅是

we related, but we interact with the entire biosphere too. We're completely dependent

我们相互关联，但我们也与整个生物圈相互作用。我们完全依赖

upon it. That emerges from me thinking a bit about how you define life. And I consider

之上。这是我思考如何定义生活的结果。我认为

a virus, which is actually, I come to the conclusion it's sometimes alive and sometimes

一种病毒，实际上，我得出的结论是它有时是活的，有时是

dead, which is a bit of a cop out, I realize. But the main thing I emerged from that is

死了，我意识到这有点逃避现实。但我从中得到的最重要的是

a virus is dependent upon other life forms to behave. But actually, we are all dependent

病毒依赖于其他生命形式的行为。但实际上，我们都是依赖者

on other life forms. Human beings eat plants, they eat animals. Without them, they would

在其他生命形式上。人类吃植物，也吃动物。没有他们，他们就会

die. We rely for our well-being on the natural world. We rely on maintaining an environment

死。我们的福祉依赖于自然世界。我们依靠维护环境

that allows the biosphere to prosper. And so we have to recognize we interact with life,

这使得生物圈能够繁荣发展。所以我们必须认识到我们与生活互动，

all life on the planet. Therefore, we have a second reason for protecting it, and because

地球上的所有生命。因此，我们有第二个保护它的理由，因为

it's for our own good. And I end the book with those two messages. This is important.

这是为了我们好。我以这两条信息结束这本书。这个很重要。

And maybe, I mean, certainly, Schroedinger wouldn't have gone in that direction. And

也许，我的意思是，薛定谔当然不会朝那个方向走。和

most molecular biologists tend to stop short before they get there, I would say.

我想说，大多数分子生物学家往往会在到达那里之前停下来。

It's a principle of such importance for our stewardship of the planet and for the way

对于我们对地球的管理和道路来说，这是一个非常重要的原则

we view everything, right down to, as you say, viruses, even the coronavirus that we're

我们看待一切，正如你所说，病毒，甚至是我们所关注的冠状病毒

all battling now.

现在都在战斗。

Well, I think it is. And in a sense, you could say the book is, I set out to explain what

嗯，我想是的。从某种意义上说，你可以说这本书是，我试图解释什么

life is to as many people as I could, and also to make the argument that we have to

生活是为了尽可能多的人，也是为了证明我们必须

be good stewards for the planet, exactly as you said. So I did have a double purpose there.

正如您所说，成为地球的好管家。所以我在那里确实有双重目的。

The second one only emerged towards the end. Except I do dedicate it to my four grandchildren

第二个直到最后才出现。但我确实把它献给我的四个孙子

and say, over to you. You've got to sort that.

并说，交给你了。你必须对此进行排序。

Well, so in fact, the book, although written for the general reader, may be an appeal,

嗯，所以事实上，这本书虽然是为普通读者写的，但可能是一种吸引力，

as maybe this podcast is, an appeal to some specialists to turn their attention to biology

也许这个播客就是呼吁一些专家将注意力转向生物学

more.

更多的。

Well, it is there. It's a sort of hidden message I wanted there, because although I said I

嗯，它就在那里。这是我想要的一种隐藏信息，因为虽然我说我

wrote it for the intelligent 17-year-old, or at least the interested 17-year-old, I

写给聪明的 17 岁孩子，或者至少是感兴趣的 17 岁孩子，我

think others will read it. And I want some bits of it maybe to excite them in the way

认为其他人会读它。我想要其中的一些内容也许能让他们兴奋

that you've just described. And I don't have a manifesto there. I mean, this is typically

你刚才描述的。我那里没有宣言。我的意思是，这通常是

British, isn't it? It's rather understated. It's sort of you come across it. I'm not making

英国人，不是吗？这是相当低调的。就好像你遇到了它。我不做

a song and dance about it, really. But if there's something interesting there, and then

确实是关于它的歌曲和舞蹈。但如果那里有什么有趣的东西，然后

maybe somebody will respond to it. The weakness of my argument is I don't know what to do.

也许有人会回应它。我的论点的弱点是我不知道该怎么办。

I think there's something there that needs to be done, but I'm not quite sure how to

我认为有一些事情需要做，但我不太确定如何做

even start it. So when you said, you know, I have all the resources at the Francis Crick

甚至开始它。所以当你说，你知道，我在弗朗西斯·克里克拥有所有资源

Institute and so on, it's true, except of course, it's very bottom-up run. So I don't

研究所等等，这是事实，当然，除了它是自下而上的运作方式。所以我不

sort of direct things. But if people came along who were interesting in this sort of

一些直接的事情。但如果有人对这类事情感兴趣

way and also practical, then I'd certainly be interested.

方式又实用，那我肯定会感兴趣。

The real question is to sort out those who are really interesting versus those who just

真正的问题是区分那些真正有趣的人和那些只是有趣的人

want to sound interesting. There is quite a number of people who just sound interesting

想要听起来有趣。有相当多的人听起来很有趣

when they're not really interesting. And I could even accuse myself of that, perhaps

当它们并不是很有趣的时候。也许我什至可以指责自己

sounding interesting without really saying anything.

听起来很有趣，但实际上什么也没说。

Paul Nurse is keenly aware that good research requires solid organisations. So while he's

保罗·纳斯敏锐地意识到，良好的研究需要坚实的组织。所以当他在

continued to conduct research, he's also held posts such as the President of the Royal

继续进行研究，他还担任过皇家主席等职务

Society and President of Rockefeller University in New York. In 2010, he became the first

纽约洛克菲勒大学协会主席。 2010年，他成为第一个

director and chief executive of the Francis Crick Institute, a biomedical research organisation

生物医学研究机构弗朗西斯·克里克研究所的董事兼首席执行官

dedicated to understanding the fundamental biology underlying health and disease.

致力于了解健康和疾病的基础生物学。

You have these two roles. You are a hugely successful research scientist who has found

你有这两个角色。你是一位非常成功的研究科学家，他发现

that you're also incredibly good at organising people and getting things done, to borrow

你也非常擅长组织人员和完成工作，借用

Brexit phraseology. Sorry for that. Was it a surprise to you to find that you are incredibly

英国脱欧措辞。对此感到抱歉。你是否惊讶地发现自己令人难以置信

capable when it comes to bringing things together? And not least the Crick Institute, which I

有能力将事物整合在一起吗？尤其是克里克研究所，我

see behind you in this Zoom conversation, busy people walking along the corridor there

在 Zoom 对话中看到你身后，忙碌的人们沿着走廊行走

getting moving equipment around. It's a nice backdrop to the conversation. But there you

移动设备。这是谈话的一个很好的背景。但有你

have your Crick Institute. Did you know that that was in you when you started out as a

有你的克里克研究所。你知道吗，当你刚开始做一名

research scientist?

研究科学家？

Well, you know, I'm a bit schizophrenic about this. I mean, if you were to ask me what really

嗯，你知道，我对此有点精神分裂。我的意思是，如果你问我到底是什么

gives me satisfaction, it is doing my research. I mean, I'm towards the end of my research

让我满意的是，它正在做我的研究。我的意思是，我的研究即将结束

career. I'm no longer as creative as I was 30 years ago, but it is still what drives

职业。我不再像 30 年前那样有创造力，但这仍然是我的动力

me. I'm still wake up in the morning thinking about what's happening in my little yeast

我。我早上醒来仍然想着我的小酵母发生了什么

cells, which I have researched for so long. But I did find that I was quite good at organising

细胞，我研究了这么久。但我确实发现我很擅长组织

things and getting things done. But I've never had quite the same satisfaction about that

事情并把事情做好。但我对此从未有过同样的满足感

as I have about making a discovery. I have to admit to that. Sometimes I try and get

就像我有一个发现一样。我必须承认这一点。有时我尝试得到

inside my brain and try and find out why I do things. I'm going to explain how I think

在我的大脑中尝试找出我做事的原因。我将解释我的想法

it is. I realised that I have been funded all my life and supported all my life to pursue

这是。我意识到我一生都被资助，一生都被支持去追求

my curiosity to find out aspects of how the natural world works. I look upon this as an

我对了解自然世界如何运作的各个方面感到好奇。我认为这是一个

enormous privilege. I don't look upon it as something as a right. I look upon it as a

巨大的特权。我不认为这是一种权利。我将其视为

privilege that I have been supported just to follow my curiosity. I felt from the very

我很荣幸得到支持只是为了满足我的好奇心。我从一开始就感觉到

beginning even when I was a graduate student, if I was going to be supported in that way,

从我还是研究生的时候开始，如果我能得到这样的支持，

I had to give something back that was more real, something that was more practical. Now,

我必须回馈一些更真实、更实用的东西。现在，

I could have made a decision to work on a disease like malaria or something where I

我本可以决定从事疟疾等疾病的研究工作

was actually doing something practical. But I didn't want to do that because I wanted

其实是在做一些实际的事情。但我不想那样做，因为我想要

to be driven by my own curiosity. But what I found was that for some reason that I don't

被我自己的好奇心所驱使。但我发现由于某种原因我不

fully understand, I was quite good at organising things. I don't do a lot of the heavy lifting

完全理解，我很擅长组织事情。我不做很多繁重的工作

myself, but I'm prepared to take responsibility for it. I identify people who are good at

我自己，但我准备为此承担责任。我识别出擅长的人

it and try and drive things forward. I also can work with a wide range of different people

并尝试推动事情向前发展。我还可以与各种各样不同的人一起工作

with quite different opinions and try and get the best out of them to get something

有着截然不同的观点并尝试充分利用他们来得到一些东西

through, a diplomatic role, if you like. In a very fundamental way, I felt that that paid

如果你愿意的话，通过外交角色。从根本上来说，我觉得这付出了代价

for me to pursue my curiosity on the other half of my life. Half of my life is still

让我用我的另一半生命去追求我的好奇心。我的半生还在

pursuing my curiosity, and that's on the other side of the wall here where my laboratory

追求我的好奇心，那是在墙的另一边，我的实验室

is. Half of it is doing things which I think are for the public good, like setting up this

是。其中一半是在做我认为是为了公众利益的事情，比如建立这个

biomedical research institute, running the Royal Society, running research institutions

生物医学研究所、运营皇家学会、运营研究机构

like Rockefeller and Cancer Research UK before that. That is paying my debt to society, but

就像之前的洛克菲勒和英国癌症研究中心一样。那是我对社会的亏欠，但是

is allowing me then to pursue my curiosity for the other half of my life. Now, that has

让我能够在余生中追求我的好奇心。现在，那已经

kept me in a moral balance, I suppose, an ethical balance, at least inside my head,

让我保持道德平衡，我想，道德平衡，至少在我的头脑里，

as to why I pursue both of those things. But if I had to choose, I would just be a researcher.

至于为什么我追求这两件事。但如果我必须选择的话，我会选择做一名研究员。

It's fascinating that you think that there is this concept of payback for being a research

令人着迷的是你认为作为一项研究存在回报的概念

scientist. I think a lot of people who are research scientists perhaps feel, yes, that

科学家。我想很多从事研究的科学家可能都会觉得，是的，

they're in a very privileged position, but at the same time, they're doing good work.

他们处于非常优越的地位，但与此同时，他们也做得很好。

That is justified, that there isn't a concept of having to do something on top of that in

这是有道理的，不存在必须在此之上做某事的概念

order to pay back for this privilege. It's also very interesting that you have this concept

为了回报这种特权。你有这个概念也很有趣

of service. It's perhaps rather rare these days, the idea of having to be socially responsible

的服务。如今，必须承担社会责任的想法可能相当罕见

and service should be a part of one's life.

服务应该成为一个人生活的一部分。

Well, I feel it very strongly. I don't quite know where it came from. I didn't come from

嗯，我的感觉非常强烈。我不太清楚它是从哪里来的。我不是来自

an academic background, which might have changed my view of it in the sense that that would

学术背景，这可能会改变我对它的看法，因为这会

have been seen as perhaps enough. I feel that. By the way, I don't criticize other people

被认为也许已经足够了。我觉得。顺便说一句，我不会批评别人

who don't have the same position as myself, but I came from a different sort of background.

他们的立场与我不同，但我来自不同的背景。

I just remember when I was a graduate student thinking, unless I was very good at what I

我只记得当我还是一名研究生的时候我就想，除非我非常擅长我所擅长的领域

did, I couldn't justify just following my curiosity. That was one thing. The second

确实如此，我不能证明仅仅跟随我的好奇心是合理的。那是一回事。第二

is every opportunity I should pay it back, I could. That's been the way I've worked

每一个机会我都应该偿还，我可以。这就是我的工作方式

all my life, really.

我一生，真的。

What actually turned you on, as a final question, what turned you on to biology and this path

到底是什么让你兴奋，作为最后一个问题，是什么让你对生物学和这条道路感兴趣

in life in the first place?

生活中首先？

I was interested in the natural world and how the natural world worked. My first glimmerings

我对自然世界以及自然世界如何运作很感兴趣。我的第一缕光芒

of that were to do with looking at the night sky, really, looking at planets and stars

其中与观察夜空有关，实际上是观察行星和恒星

and a little telescope when I was nine, 10, 11. That was what attracted me then. I started

当我九岁、十岁、十一岁的时候，还有一台小望远镜。这就是当时吸引我的东西。我已开始

noticing the natural world, the change in the seasons, what happened to insects, how

观察自然世界、季节变化、昆虫发生了什么、如何

they metamorphize from one state to another. I was pretty immersed in an interest in that

它们从一种状态转变为另一种状态。我对此非常感兴趣

natural world and the sciences. I'm actually interested in the humanities as well, but

自然世界和科学。其实我对人文学科也很感兴趣，但是

that was always a background compared with this.

与此相比，那始终是一个背景。

As I got a little older, still at school, I thought, well, which way should I go, the

当我长大一点，还在上学时，我想，好吧，我应该走哪条路，

physical sciences or the biological life sciences? What I thought was this, I thought, well,

物理科学还是生物生命科学？我的想法是这样的，我想，好吧，

in the life sciences, because it deals a lot with particulars and details, you are always

在生命科学领域，因为它涉及很多细节和细节，所以你总是

able to contribute something. In the physical sciences, it always seems so immense, the

能够贡献一些东西。在物理科学中，它总是显得如此巨大，

problems. You feel that you're a bit more of a cog in the wheel. I remember this came

问题。你觉得自己更像是车轮上的一个齿轮。我记得这个来过

across, started thinking like this when I read in a naturalist's handbook, it was suggesting

当我读到博物学家的手册时，开始这样想，它暗示

projects and it said, why don't you go around your garden and map where spider's webs are?

项目上写着，你为什么不绕着你的花园走一圈，绘制出蜘蛛网在哪里的地图呢？

I remember this very clearly. What do you learn from the distribution of spider's webs

这件事我记得很清楚。从蜘蛛网的分布中你知道什么

about spiders and what they're doing and why they put them in certain places? Which I did.

关于蜘蛛、它们在做什么以及为什么把它们放在某些地方？我做到了。

I wandered around the garden, I mapped them and I began to think, well, this might be

我在花园里闲逛，绘制了它们的地图，然后我开始想，好吧，这可能是

a place where flies will get caught and so on.

苍蝇会被抓住的地方等等。

Then at the end of this, I discovered something myself. Just by looking in my back garden,

最后，我自己发现了一些东西。只要看看我的后花园，

this is what biology is. Whereas with physics, you've got to have the Large Hadron Collider

这就是生物学。而对于物理学，你必须拥有大型强子对撞机

and a many kilometre ring. I know it isn't quite like that, but I felt even if I wasn't

和一个数公里的环。我知道事情并非如此，但我觉得即使我不是

that great a scientist, if I was just an average scientist, I'd be able to contribute something

那么伟大的科学家，如果我只是一个普通的科学家，我就能做出一些贡献

in the life sciences in a way that I couldn't in the physical sciences. I think that's why

在生命科学领域，我在物理科学领域无法做到这一点。我想这就是为什么

I ended up there.

我最终到了那里。

Really story and really very hopeful, very optimistic end that anybody can become a discoverer

真实的故事，非常充满希望、非常乐观的结局，任何人都可以成为发现者

in their garden. Paul, thank you very much indeed.

在他们的花园里。保罗，真的非常感谢你。

That was a great little interview. Thank you.

这是一次很棒的小采访。谢谢。

You've just heard Nobel Prize Conversations, a podcast series with Adam Smith by Filt Hinterland

您刚刚听过《诺贝尔奖对话》，这是 Filt Hinterland 与亚当·斯密 (Adam Smith) 合作的播客系列

for Nobel Prize Outreach.

诺贝尔奖推广活动。

The producer for this episode was Sally Henriksen and I'm Claire Brilliant. Music by Epidemic

本集的制片人是 Sally Henriksen，我是 Claire Brilliant。流行音乐

Sound.

声音。

This episode is from season two of the show. You can find previous seasons and conversations

这一集来自该剧第二季。您可以找到以前的季节和对话

on Acast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

在 Acast 上或任何您收听播客的地方。感谢收听。

If you're passionate about the Nobel Prize, you won't want to miss a single episode of

如果您对诺贝尔奖充满热情，您就不会想错过任何一集

our podcast. Be sure to subscribe. We're available on Acast, Amazon Music, Apple podcasts, Google

我们的播客。请务必订阅。我们可以在 Acast、亚马逊音乐、Apple 播客、Google 上使用

podcasts, GeoSarven, Spotify and many, many more popular platforms.

播客、GeoSarven、Spotify 以及许多其他流行平台。