科学网—美国SFN学术论战实录（1）氢原子电磁辐射与稳定态（I）

Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:26 AM

Recently, I have finished a manuscript "Electromagnetic radiation and steady state of hydrogen atom"(see attachment file), which is about the electromanetic phenomena of two moving charged particles in hydrogen atom by means of classical electromagnetics.

The present understanding about electromagnetic radiation of moving charged particle according to classical electrodynamics is incorrect, and lead the solution of radiation reaction from it "run away " and conflict with causality. The stability of hydrogen atom should be recognized in terms of classical electromagnetic theory.

Electromagnetic radiation is produced by acceleration of the moving charged particle, but the acceleration of it is not enough to describe the radiation of moving charged particle. In hydrogen atom, the magnetic interaction of two moving charged particles is determined by vector product of the two velocities of them, and the rate of the change of the magnetic forces on two charged particles are same in magnitude and in opposite direction of their motion. According to the classical electromagnetic theory, the induced electric field is proportional to the rate of change of magnetic field. Then, it is not difficult to get that the radiation reaction on a charged particle could be described by the rate of change of magnetic force. Therefore, the radiation of charged particle is related the rate of vector product of velocities of the two moving charged particles in hydrogen atom, and the intensities of the induced electric fields of the two charged particles are same in magnitude.

A new conception – pinch effect of induced field was induced to describe the interaction of induced electric field and induced magnetic field by the conception “pinch effect of plasma”. By this new conception, the propagation and the distribution of radiation will be flexed and concentrated in a narrow space with the increase of the frequency of orbit for moving charged particles in hydrogen atom.

Based on the new understanding above, the present manuscript the spontaneous radiation of the two charged particles system was analyzed, and proved that the hydrogen atom has a natural steady electromagnetic structure which is called ground state of hydrogen atom. Finally, the resonant equation of ground circular orbit had been investigated by mean of standing wave equation. Meanwhile, Schrödinger equation and Planck quantum had been deduced from the resonant equation logically and causally. Thereby, I believe Schrödinger equation could be explained as the standing wave expression of modal response of ground orbit of hydrogen atom.

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091117.pdf 96.38KB 471 downloads

Edited by Jeremy0922, 27 January 2010 - 12:51 PM.
typing error

Jeremy0922

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Posted 2 March 2010 - 07:53 AM

According to classical electrodynamic theory, for a non-relativistic moving charged particle, the electromagnetic radiation is only related to its acceleration vector, then a direct deduction could be obtained as follow:

The radiation reaction should be only related to the acceleration vector of the charged particle. Because the motion of the charged particle might be arbitrary, and then the angle of the velocity and the acceleration should be discretional degree. That is the angle of the radiation reaction and the velocity could be a sharp angle, or be an obtuse angle. Bause the power of radiation reaction equals to the scalar product of the velocity and radiation reaction, thereby, the work of radiation reaction could be positive value, or be negative value. Clearly, this result is unsatisfied to the law of energy conservation.

The question: electromagnetic radiation by moving charged particle is really determined by acceleration, or not? :confused:

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Posted 2 March 2010 - 12:01 PM

What's the angular momentum of the system in the ground state in your model?

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Posted 2 March 2010 - 04:07 PM

Jeremy0922 said

The question: electromagnetic radiation by moving charged particle is really determined by acceleration, or not?

Yes, it is, at least in CED. As you porobably know, the radiation is a part of the total electromagnetic field created by a charge. This part is relatively small at short distances (1/R < 1/R^2, R < 1) but becomes the only carrying away the field energy-momentum at remote distances (1/R >> 1/R^2, R >> 1).

Concerning the radiative friction term in the particle equation, the only reasonable expression in CED is that of jerk in the perturbation theory.

Your reasoning about acceletarion is wrong. An additional acceleration term in the particle equation changes the particle mass. With a heavier mass the actual particle acceleration becomes smaller. But this approach fails: it does not fit experiments. See http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4416.

Edited by Bob_for_short, 2 March 2010 - 04:53 PM.

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Posted 2 March 2010 - 04:18 PM

The sum of the angular momentums of two particles referred to their center of mass, because the two particles are moving along their circular orbits around the center of mass on the same plane with the same frequency.

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Posted 2 March 2010 - 04:46 PM

Jeremy0922 said

The sum of the angular momentums of two particles referred to their center of mass, because the two particles are moving along their circular orbits around the center of mass on the same plane with the same frequency.

That would be a problem, since the angular momentum of the Hydrogen ground state is zero.

If you re going to present something that looks like the Bohr model, you need to address the deficiencies of the Bohr model.

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Posted 3 March 2010 - 08:46 AM

Swansont, Thank you very much!
The model of hydrogen atom in my manuscript is similar to Bohr's, but not same.
1. By means of classical electromagnetics, it has been proved that there is a natural steady state that is ground state for hydrogen atom.
2. Linear spectrum from hydrogen atom could be explained as effect produced by resonant vibration (modal response) of the ground orbit.
3. Factually, there are several mathematical tools could be selected to treat the electron orbit and resonance of ground state of hydrogen atom. The circular orbit of electron for ground state could be treated with standing wave equation, and the orbit parameters and other physical quantities of groud state and resonant state could be gotten by solution of the Standing wave equation. So, standing wave equation does not describe the real motion of the electron in hydrogen atom.
4.Schrodinger equation of steady state of hydrogen atom was deduced from the standing wave equation of ground circular orbit of electron by mathematical treatment. The mathematical condition required is that the ground circular orbit of electron is selected as reference to describe other resonant orbits, and then the parameters and physical quantities of resonant orbits could be described with that of ground orbit and integral number. Meanwhile, the relation E=hv (Planck quantum) was deduced.

By my point, the quantum number from Schrodinger equation of hydrogen atom such as n, l, is related to orbital shape comparing to ground circular orbit.

Is the interpretation right?

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Posted 3 March 2010 - 08:56 AM

My question is for non-relativistic motion of charged particle.

swansont

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Posted 3 March 2010 - 09:45 AM

The Schrödinger equation predicts a circularly symmetric probability of finding the electron, but does not predict a circular orbit. And it correctly predicts angular momentum of zero. Any model that has a classical orbit is going to be wrong, because it will contradict this.

#10

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Posted 3 March 2010 - 10:13 AM

Of course you are right, if "Copenhagen interpretation" satisfies to science principle, that is logic and causality.

The aim of the manuscript is to provide an other inpterpretation about the consequences from Schrodinger equation based on classical theory and conception which the great M.Planck hoped

Edited by Jeremy0922, 3 March 2010 - 10:18 AM.
modification

#11

swansont

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Posted 3 March 2010 - 10:34 AM

The interpretation is rejected if it predicts things not borne out by experiment.

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Posted 4 March 2010 - 03:04 AM

OK, that is true.
Hydrogen atom is a two-particle system, including a nucleus (proton) and an electron. If we accept pure probability interpretation about wave function, and the two particles obey it. There probably is not a steady center of the atom, and it is impossible to get a center field model to describe the motion of the electron of hygrogen atom. I think that is a serious problem for pure probability interpretation, and make me try to find a new idea.

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 07:48 AM

If the motions of the electron and proton are controlled by probablity wave, is there a steady hydrogen atom. :confused:

So, I trust M. Planck is right.

Edited by Jeremy0922, 12 March 2010 - 07:57 AM.
adding point

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swansont

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 10:27 AM

Described by a probability wave. Not controlled by it.

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 04:21 PM

Sorry，the motion of the electron is controlled by the center field caused by the proton according to current model of hydrogen atom. But this field is not steady if we accept probability wave to describe the motion of the proton.

So, it is difficult to get steady model of hydrogen atom from probability wave interpretation, isn't it?

Edited by Jeremy0922, 12 March 2010 - 04:47 PM.
modify

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 04:46 PM

Depends on what you mean by steady. The energy and angular momentum are quantized. The location of the electron is not. But then, that's neither surprising nor an issue that's solved by a classical approach.

We know that the electron will exhibit wave behavior from independent experiments of diffraction and interference. The Bohr orbit for n=1 has an angular momentum of hbar, so the deBroglie wavelength of the electron is of order the Bohr radius. You can't localize the electron with a classical solution, either.

A solution that gets the angular momentum wrong is wrong. Period. No further discussion necessary.

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 08:19 AM

I agree and respect your decision. But I want to give my idea about the questions above.

The frame selected fo describe hydrogen atom should be steady to lab frame.

Any science theory is never self-contradictory.

The main success of quantum mechanics owes to the outstanding consequences from Schrödinger equation about some structure properties of atom and molecule. Schrödinger equation expresses the relations between some physical quantitiies while the structure is changing, that is Schrödinger equation is a condition equation about structure change.

If resonance is able to change the structure of atom and molecule, then standing wave function from resonance should be equivalent to Schrödinger equation. To solve the standing wave, some physical quantities such as the frequencies of natural vibration and high term vibration will be obtained, while unmeaning results will be obtained too. The reservation of mathematical results is determined by physical phenomena.

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 10:30 AM

Jeremy0922 said

The frame selected fo describe hydrogen atom should be steady to lab frame.

What do you mean by this? How does QM fail to do it?

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 03:05 AM

The model of hydrogen atom that the electron moves in the center field produced by proton is the inevitable result by pure classical theory, and the reduced mass of electron must be introduced to correct the result. With QM, we accept and select this model of hydrogen atom which is belong to pure classic conception, to build Schrödinger equation of it, and then deny the classical motion of the electron. I think that is self-contradictory.

Since we have the perfect description of QM about the motion of particle, the model of hydrogen atom could be build with it.

Why don't we build the model of hydrogen atom independently by QM?

Merged post follows:

Edited by Jeremy0922, 14 March 2010 - 05:15 AM.
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#20

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Posted 9 April 2010 - 09:11 AM

Continuous thread "Why don't we build the model of hydrogen atom independently by QM? "
http://www.sciencefo...ead.php?t=49857

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