https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHAl1PHcQyU

We need a scientific revolution | Eric Weinstein full interview

Do you agree with Eric that we need more great science rather than just good science? Watch Eric debate string theory with Brian Green at https://iai.tv/video/the-trouble-with-string-theory?utm_source=YouTube&utm_medium=pinned+comment&utm_campaign=we-need-a-scientific-revolution-eric-weinstein

伟大的科学常常被主流科学所嘲笑-科学网视频-科学网 (sciencenet.cn)

经典句子

science cares about you no matter whether you love science or hate science as people come to understand the power of it everyone's going to Care

不必强行给人灌输“热爱科学”或“讨厌科学”。当人们真正理解科学后，任何人都有钻研科学的动力。

where have we gone wrong

关于科学，我们哪里做错了。

part of the problem is that we have too much good science, and that in fact good science and great science are not exactly the same thing.

good science is what we're most familiar with because we know how to train people in it, it has to do with uh being extremely careful um not falling for uh artifacts in your data, um making sure that you have high statistical significance, being extremely modest in your claims and your thought process. it's extremely important that there is a core. in fact, the majority of science is good good science.

what's really disturbing and I think something that really hasn't been seized upon is that great science is often very different. it's not just good science turned up to 11 which is my usual line. it's in fact a different process and it borders on the irresponsible. it has to do with crossing the Adaptive Valley to posit something that makes no sense to say things that are in fact wrong for a period of time before they're right.

and perhaps the only two really accomplished uh scientists who written on this topic with which I'm familiar might be dck who wrote about it in 1963 in Scientific American an article that needs to be read by everyone， is widely misinterpreted saying that beauty is more important than agreement with experiment, and Jim Watson who uh had rules for succeeding in science, and in fact these are clearly not rules for good science because he was never a good scientist he was merely a great one.

部分问题在于我们有太多的主流公认科学家，事实上，主流公认的科学和伟大的科学并不一回事。

我们最熟悉的是主流公认的科学.我们的教育就是培养这方面的科学家，主流科学家谨慎地避免人为数据。确保你的结论有很高的统计显着性，主流科学家的主张和思维过程都表现的极其谦虚，以公认的理论为不可质疑的核心。事实上，主流科学就是大多数人的科学。

真正颠覆认知的是我们没有真正被抓住的事情本质，即伟大的科学与主流科学非常不同的，伟大的科学不是沿主流科学的通常路线走，越过一个限度就能达到的。伟大的科学与主流科学是完全不同的过程，它不对主流科学负责。在主流科学家看来，伟大的科学家常常越界，口出狂言诋毁主流科学。的确，伟大的科学家提出的思想在被确认为是正确的之前，都被认为是不着边际、在很长一段时间内被认为是错的。

也许只有两位真正有成就的科学家认识到这个问题。1963 年狄拉克在《科学美国人》上写了一篇文章值得每个人阅读。这篇文章被广泛误解为与公认理论一致远比与实验结果一致更重要。而吉姆·沃森（Jim Watson）给出在科学上取得成功的规律。但事实上这些规律不是让人们成为公认理论的科学家，因为他根本不是一位主流科学家，他仅仅是一位伟大的科学家。

another example um is someone like Fineman right so the way the way he behaved the way he toyed with ideas was I imagine not very popular at the time， not the not the kind of thing that constituted good science but he's sort of gone down in history as one of the century defining physicists

另一个例子也许是费曼这样的人，他的行为方式和想法在当时不太受欢迎。他的东西不是当时公认的理论，但他是载入史册的物理学家。

which those questions do not depend on certain inaccuracies or distortions. every model has distortions. some questions are dependent upon the distortions that that layer, others are not if you're very careful. you stratify the questions and the layer of the model and you can work with a flawed model without getting flawed answers, and so Ken Wilson really elucidated that Fineman um in fact didn't follow his own Theory far enough.

每个模型都可能有不准确性或有扭曲。有些问题被扭曲的模型主导，但只要足够细心，就可以摆脱扭曲模型的主导，因而你使用有缺陷的模型而不会得到有缺陷的结果。

what are the characteristics um of of the people who have been great scientists or have done great science， so things like uh creativity I imagine， bravery as well um self-confidence

伟大科学家或做过伟大科学的人的特点是什么，创造力？面对主流权威而表象出的勇敢和自信？

well with Gregor mle for example， we think he fudged his peod data to be artificially perfect， so so uh in fact skull duggery deception. all sorts of uh very strange characteristics have crept into good science. drug use, in the case of car Mullis uh believing in dreams, in the case of cul and Benzene, so I think we have to understand that great science is an entirely different kettle of fish

主流科学追求与主流理论的完美一致，因而出现捏造过分完美数的现象。由于有与主流理论的完美一致的要求，因而出现很多非常奇怪事情。所以我们必须认识到伟大的科学必须是超越主流公认科学的。

Herzog the great film director um made a point of saying you have to uh lie， beg， borrow ，and steal to make great art. and I think that that this is really unexplored because we're uncomfortable transmitting the rules for great science. and we've fallen into stagnation because of it.

yeah so let's think then about the practical consequences of this observation， so there's something ever so slightly well， there's a tension in the idea of trying to create an environment which breeds more great science right because part of the characterization is linked to this main body of good science ，such that one can strike out from it to be a great scientist. um so how can we Foster an environment? is it just that we need to be more accepting at those figures, those moments, when they come, or is there something positive we can do to create the possibility?

伟大的电影导演维勒·赫尔佐格（Verer Herzog）提到一个观点，你必须撒谎、乞求、借，和偷来创造伟大的艺术，类似问题在科学界没有被探究过，因为把这种规则推广到伟大科学产生上很让人不舒服。但是正是因为同样的原因科学才陷入停滞。

如果我们能使科学稍微好一点的话，尝试创造一个孕育更多伟大科学的环境,因为伟大科学与主流公认科学是有联系的。这样一个人就可以从主流公认科学中脱颖而出，成为一名伟大的科学家，嗯，那么我们如何才能培育一个环境呢？只是这些伟大人物或伟大时刻出现之时，主流学界更能拥抱它，或者 我们可以做些什么来促进伟大科学的产生？

what you want to do is not self- select on bloodlines but self-select on ability and then allow the truly extraordinary， the eccentricities of their minds， because it's like great wood has a grain to it and a sculptor would never impose the figure without first Consulting the wood as to which way it wishes to be to be moved and shaped. so this complacency that we we're worried that perhaps the scientific Community or perhaps the epistemic community at large is slipping into, yeah um so what exactly is is the danger that is the danger that there will be missed opportunities for discoveries for revolution and Paradigm shifts, or or is there is there a sort of it's far worse than ethical danger, as well I think it's a tremendous ethical danger, but I think people don't understand it. we've LED people into the valley of death. right uh our previous 20th century Adventures were so powerful that they're we're probably not compatible with the leverage of our discoveries, particularly from the years 1952 and 53 when we discovered Fusion and the three dimensional structure of DNA， leading to the genetic code 1963 10 years later that is so much power that as we've seen with Co and as we've seen， um with the H bombs that have never been used against humans，你需要做的不是在主流公认理论的血统上进行自我选择，而是根据能力选择，然后允许真正非凡的事情发生他们思想的怪异，因为就像伟大的木头有纹理一样，雕刻家永远不会在没有先考察木头以了解、希望以哪种方式塑造模型，所以我们所关心的科学界或整个认知界的走向。危险是我们可能会错过科学革命和转变，或者是否存在主流科学家为了维护自己名誉的巨大的糟糕道德问题，但人们不明白这一点，我们已经把人们带入了死亡之谷，呃，我们20 世纪的科学探险是如此强大，以至于我们不知道取得那些成就的背后原因。特别是从 1952 年和 53 年开始，当时我们发现了聚变和DNA 的三维结构，直至 10 年后的 1963 年的遗传密码，这些成就在认识新冠病时期发挥了作用。还有对人类使用过的氢弹，

so we're chasing people with true imagination out of the Sciences， because what we're saying it is that that's not good science， and by the way， they're it's not incorrect， it's often not good science right， and it's very important not to fetishize good science because that's Humanity's death

我们正把伟大科学赶出人们的大脑，因为我们所说颠覆性创新是伪科学，这不是好的科学，顺便说一句，这并不是不正确的。颠覆性创新的确需要超越主流公认理论，但是重要的是不要迷恋好的主流科学理论，因为那样的话，科学就走向灭亡。主流科学家需要学会对一小撮非主流理论的容忍，允许一小撮非主流科学家有表达自己的权力。

英汉对照 （机器翻译）

science cares about you no matter

科学关心你，

whether you love science or hate science

无论你喜欢科学还是讨厌科学，

as people come to understand the power

因为人们开始了解科学的力量，

of it everyone's going to

每个人都会

关心你好，

Care hi Eric thanks for coming down for

埃里克，感谢你接受

the interview we're going to start with

采访，我们将从

just a very broad general question and

一个非常广泛的一般性开始 问题是

it's what does good science look like

好的科学是什么样的，

and where where have we gone wrong well

我们在哪里出了问题，

it's odd that you ask me of all people

你问我这个问题很奇怪，

because I think I'm one of the only

因为我认为我是唯一

people who would give you the answer

能给你答案的人之一，

that part of the problem is that we have

问题的一部分在于 我们有

too much good science and that in fact

太多好的科学，事实上，

good science and great science are not

好的科学和伟大的科学并不

exactly the same thing good science is

完全相同，好的科学是

what we're most familiar with because we

我们最熟悉的，因为我们

know how to train people in it it has to

知道如何培训人们，这

do with uh being extremely careful um

与呃非常小心有关。

not falling for uh artifacts in your

不要被你的数据中的假象所迷惑，

data um making sure that you have high

确保你有很高的

statistical significance being extremely

统计显着性，

modest in your claims and your thought

在你的主张和思维过程中极其谦虚，

process it's extremely important that

there is a core in fact the majority of

有一个核心是非常重要的，事实上，大多数

science is good good

科学都是好的

science what's really disturbing and I

科学，真正令人不安的是，我

think something that really hasn't been

认为真正没有被

seized upon is that great science is

抓住的事情是，伟大的科学

often very different it's not just good

往往是非常不同的，这不仅仅是好的

science turned up to 11 which is my

科学变成了11，这是我

usual line it's in fact a different

通常的路线，它实际上是一个不同的

process and it borders on the

过程，它与

irresponsible it has to do with crossing

跨越有关的不负责任的边缘

the Adaptive Valley to posit something

适应性谷提出了一些

that makes no sense to say things that

毫无意义的东西，

are in fact wrong for a period of time

在一段时间内说一些实际上是错误的事情，然后它们才是

before they're right and perhaps the

正确的，也许

only two really accomplished uh

唯一两位真正有成就的呃

scientists who written on this topic

科学家在这个主题上写过

with which I'm familiar might be dck who

我熟悉的文章 dck

wrote about it in 1963 in Scientific

于 1963 年在《科学美国人》上写了

American an article that needs to be

一篇文章，

read by everyone is widely

每个人都需要阅读，但被广泛

misinterpreted saying that beauty is

误解，他说美比

more important than agreement with

experiment and Jim Watson who uh had

实验一致更重要，而吉姆·沃森（Jim Watson）呃，有

rules for succeeding in science and in

在科学上取得成功的规则，但

fact these are clearly not rules for

事实上这些显然不是

good science because he was never a good

良好科学的规则，因为他从来都不是一名优秀的

scientist he was merely a great one so

科学家，他只是一名伟大的科学家，

so maybe maybe another example um is

所以也许另一个例子，嗯，就是

someone like Fineman right so the way

像法恩曼这样的人，对，所以

the way he behaved the way he toyed with

ideas was I imagine not very popular at

我认为他的行为方式和他玩弄想法的方式在当时不太受欢迎。

the time not the not the kind of thing

时间并不是

that constituted good science but he's

构成良好科学的东西，但他

sort of gone down in history as one of

作为

the century defining physicists right

定义物理学家的世纪之一载入史册，

yes although you have to realize that if

是的，尽管你必须意识到，如果

you really understand Fineman he was in

你真正理解费恩曼，他

fact not understanding of his own work

实际上并不理解他自己的工作

he viewed uh much of his work as being a

他认为呃，他的大部分工作都是一个

dippy process for sweeping away

扫除困扰

Infinities that had plagued the

equations of quantum Electro Dynamics or

量子电动力学或

Quantum field Theory and in fact uh it

量子场论方程的无穷大的过程，事实上，呃，

took Ken Wilson to really say why

肯·威尔逊才真正说出了为什么

Fineman and schwinger and tominaga

Fineman、schwinger 和 tominaga

techniques uh in fact worked that they

技术呃事实上 认为它们

weren't a an Infinity cancelling trick

不是一个无限消除技巧，

but rather they were a reflection of

而是它们反映了

scale and something much deeper which is

规模和更深层次的东西，即将一个

the Restriction of one's questions to

人的问题限制在

the layer or strata at which those

层或层上，在这些层或层上，这些

questions do not depend on certain

问题不依赖于

inaccuracies or distortions every model

每个模型所具有的某些不准确性或扭曲。

has distortions some questions are

扭曲 有些问题

dependent upon the distortions that that

依赖于该

layer others are not if you're very

层的扭曲，而其他问题则不然，如果你非常

careful you stratify the questions and

小心地对问题和

the layer of the model and you can work

模型层进行分层，并且你可以

with a flawed model without getting

使用有缺陷的模型而不会得到

flawed answers and so Ken Wilson really

有缺陷的答案，所以 Ken Wilson 确实

elucidated that Fineman um in fact

阐明了 Fineman 嗯事实上

didn't follow his own Theory far enough

没有遵循他自己的理论足够远

one of the reasons he failed to predict

他未能预测

the uh Zed not particle uh was that

呃Zed不是粒子呃的原因之一是

neutral currents were needed for

renormalization he had introduced

重整化需要中性电流他引入了

renormalization he said that's not a

重整化他说这不是一个

good enough reason to predict a particle

足够好的理由来预测粒子

and he missed a great opportunity yeah

他错过了一个很好的机会是啊

yeah yeah yeah interesting so the I'm

是啊是啊有趣所以我

just thinking about what are the

只是在想那些

characteristics um of of the people who

曾经

have been great scientists or have done

是伟大科学家或做过

great science so things like uh

伟大科学的人的特点是什么所以像呃

creativity I imagine bravery as well um

创造力我想象勇敢以及嗯

self-confidence so these are because

自我 -信心所以这些是因为

they have to say and do things say again

他们必须说和做事情再说

well with Gregor mle for example we

一遍格雷戈尔·姆勒，例如我们

think he fudged his peod data to be

认为他捏造了他的周期数据以

artificially perfect so so uh in fact

人为地完美所以所以呃事实上

skull duggery deception all sorts of uh

头骨欺骗欺骗各种呃

very strange characteristics have crept

非常奇怪的特征已经悄然

into good science drug use in the case

进入 良好的科学在汽车的例子中使用毒品

of car Mullis uh believing in dreams in

穆利斯呃相信在

the case of cul and Benzene so I think

恶臭和苯的例子中的梦想所以我认为

we have to understand that great science

我们必须明白伟大的科学

is an entirely different kettle of fish

是完全不同的鱼

we're very uncomfortable with it because

我们对此感到非常不舒服因为

how do you teach people it's like verer

你如何教 人们就像

Herzog the great film director um made a

伟大的电影导演维勒·赫尔佐格（Verer Herzog）

point of saying you have to uh lie beg

强调的那样，你必须呃撒谎乞求

borrow and steal to make great art and I

借和偷来创造伟大的艺术，我

think that that this is really

认为这确实是

unexplored because we're uncomfortable

未经探索的，因为我们在

transmitting the rules for great science

传播伟大科学的规则时感到不舒服，

and we've fallen into stagnation because

我们 因为它而陷入停滞是的，

of it yeah so let's think then about the

所以让我们考虑一下

Practical consequences of this

这一观察的实际后果，

observation so there's something ever so

所以有一些东西稍微

slightly well there's a tension in the

好一点，在

idea of trying to create an environment

尝试创造一个

which breeds more great science right

孕育更多伟大科学的环境的想法中存在着紧张，

because part of the characterization is

因为特征的一部分

linked to this main body of good science

与这个良好科学的主体联系在一起，

such that one can strike out from it to

这样一个人就可以从中脱颖而出，

be a great scientist um so how can we

成为一名伟大的科学家，嗯，那么我们如何才能

Foster an environment is it just that we

培育一个环境呢？只是我们

need to be more accepting at those

需要在这些

figures those moments when they come or

数字出现或

is there something positive we can do to

出现时更加接受它们 我们可以做一些积极的事情来

create the possibility this is a great

创造这种可能性，这是

fear of mine about the UK it's you who

我对英国的极大恐惧，是你

should be teaching us how to do this

应该教我们如何做到这一点，

because you've been punching above your

因为你一直在超越你的

weight what you do is you put people

体重，你所做的就是让人们

under incredible pressure to show their

承受难以置信的压力 来展示他们的

competency but once they've actually

能力，但一旦他们真正

revealed themselves to be part of a

表明自己是

naturally self- selecting Elite you

自然选择的精英的一部分，你就会

embrace elitism for all of its positives

拥抱精英主义的所有积极方面，

rather than uh decide that these people

而不是呃决定这些人

have to be subjected to all the horrors

必须承受

of normal life and I think that the uh

正常生活的所有恐怖，我 认为呃

the Oxbridge system um is in danger of

牛津剑桥体系有

succumbing to America's current passion

屈服于美国当前对

for uh equity and egalitarian outcome

公平和平等结果的热情的危险，

when in fact um what you want to do is

而事实上，你想做的

not self- select on Bloodlines but self-

不是在血统上进行自我选择，而是自我

select unability and then allow the

选择无能，然后允许

truly extraordinary the eccentricities

真正非凡的事情发生

of their minds because it's like great

他们思想的怪异，因为就像伟大的

wood has a grain to it and a sculptor

木头有纹理一样，雕刻家

would never impose the figure without

永远不会在没有

first Consulting the wood as to which

先咨询木头以了解

way it wishes to be to be moved and

它希望以哪种方式移动和

shaped so this complacency that we we're

塑造的情况下强加人物，所以我们担心这种自满

worried that perhaps the scientific

也许科学

Community or perhaps the epistemic

界或

community at large is slipping into yeah

整个认知界正在滑入是啊

um so what exactly is is the danger that

嗯，那么到底是什么危险，即

is the danger that there will be missed

可能会错过

opportunities for discoveries for

revolution and Paradigm shifts or or is

革命和范式转变的发现机会，或者是否

there is there a sort of it's far worse

存在某种危险 这

than ethical danger as well I think it's

比道德危险还要糟糕得多，我认为这是

a tremendous ethical danger but I think

一个巨大的道德危险，但我认为

people don't understand it we've LED

人们不明白，我们已经把

people into the valley of death right uh

人们带入了死亡之谷，呃，

our previous 20th century Adventures

我们之前的 20 世纪冒险

were so powerful that they're we're

是如此强大，以至于他们就是我们。  re

probably not compatible with the

可能与

leverage of our discoveries particularly

我们的发现的杠杆不相容，特别是

from the years 1952 and 53 when we

从 1952 年和 53 年开始，当时我们

discovered Fusion and the

发现了融合和

threedimensional structure of DNA

DNA 的三维结构，

leading to the genetic code 1963 10

导致了 10 年后的 1963 年遗传密码，

years later that is so much power that

这是如此强大的力量，

as we've seen with Co and as we've seen

正如我们在 Co 和 正如我们所看到的，

um with the H bombs that have never been

从未对

used against humans uh we're probably

人类使用过的氢弹，呃，我们可能

not compatible with a single planetary

与单个行星表面不兼容，

surface so at the moment you actually

所以目前你实际上

need a Hail Mary and nobody wants to

需要万福玛丽，但没有人愿意从事万

work on a Hail Mary because it makes us

福玛丽的工作，因为它 让我们

look non-resectable now if somebody had

现在看起来是不可切除的

said um you know in the 1800s we're

going to have the power of the sun on

the surface of the Earth they would have

sounded like a lunatic on the other hand

now we know that that's entirely doable

完全可行，

so at the moment worry that even over my

所以现在担心，即使在我的

lifetime we've learned how not to take

一生中，我们也学会了如何不认真对待

our dreams seriously how not to channel

我们的梦想，如何不将

them into science how not to bring rigor

它们引入科学，如何不严格

to our imagination and so we're chasing

我们的想象力，所以我们正在追逐具有

people with true imagination out of the

真正想象力的人

Sciences because what we're saying is is

科学，因为我们所说的是，

that that's not good science and by the

这不是好的科学，顺便说一句，

way they're it's not incorrect it's

这并不是不正确的，它

often not good science right and it's

通常不是好的科学，

very important not to fetishize good

重要的是不要迷恋好的

science because that's Humanity's death

科学，因为那是人类

now right so so there's there's there's

现在的死亡，所以有 这里还有

also an interesting community

一个有趣的社区

Communications question here right so um

沟通问题，所以

we want to be

我们希望

fostering uh fostering the kind of

培育呃培育

opportunities for great science which

伟大科学的机会，

often as you mentioned uh involve soly

正如你提到的，这通常涉及非常

irresponsible outlooks um but there is

不负责任的观点，但是

also a need to be uh communicating with

也有必要与

some areas of society who don't even

某些领域进行沟通。 甚至

understand you know what good science is

不了解你的社会都知道什么是好的科学，

um and there seems to be both a both a

嗯，似乎既

kind of need at one level to be creating

需要在一个层面上创造

great science and another to be

伟大的科学，又需要

communicating what the point of having

传达

good science was how do you think we can

良好的科学的意义是什么，你如何做？ 我想我们可以

give those messages simultaneously

同时发出这些信息

you've had Co I have yeah yeah so have I

你已经有过 Co 我有过 是啊是啊所以有我

yeah uh I knew that we both had it and

是啊呃我知道我们都有过它，

probably this comes out of science now

现在可能这来自科学，

whether or not you care about fur and

无论你是否关心皮毛和

cleavage sites and whether you care

乳沟部位以及你是否关心

about amino acids and four of them

关于氨基酸和它们中的四个

strung together and the spike protein

串在一起以及刺突蛋白

making uh Corona virus virus incredibly

使呃冠状病毒病毒具有难以置信

virulent uh your lungs cared about it

的毒性呃你的肺部关心它你

your Ace receptors cared about whatnot

的Ace受体关心什么

so my my feeling about this is science

所以我对此的感觉是科学

cares about you no matter whether you

关心你无论你是否

love science or hate science as people

热爱科学或 讨厌科学，因为人们

come to understand the power of it

开始了解科学的力量，

everyone's going to Care Now the problem

每个人都会关心现在的问题

is when we disguise the interest in

是，当我们掩饰对

science and say well how where did this

科学的兴趣并说好这种

virus come from did it come from a

病毒是从哪里来的？它来自

Pengalin did it come from a Civic but

彭加林吗？它来自思域吗？

instead say any questioning of this

说对这种病毒的任何质疑

virus in fact is tent himount to racism

实际上都是种族主义，

well now what you've done is you've

现在你所做的就是你

killed the scientific impulse and all

扼杀了科学冲动，

sorts of children you've told told them

你告诉过的各种各样的孩子告诉他们

that scientists are not powerful enough

科学家没有强大到足以

to rule their own Roost in fact we are

统治自己的栖息地 事实上，我们

playing games engaging in skull dugery

玩的游戏涉及头骨欺骗，

so in some sense the tal the sort of

所以从某种意义上说，对

tolerance for bad behavior was spent on

不良行为的容忍度花在了

somebody like Anthony fouchy when it

像安东尼·富希这样的人身上，而它本

should have been spent on somebody like

应该花在像

a Francis Crick or for in in fact the

弗朗西斯·克里克这样的人身上，或者实际上花在了那些 弗朗西斯·

person who stopped theide from being a

problem inside of the US was Francis

Kelsey educated at the University of

凯尔西（Francis Kelsey）在芝加哥大学接受的教育

Chicago to be highly disagreeable and

非常令人讨厌，

she simply stood in the way and said I

她只是挡道说我

don't think you've proven to me that

不认为你已经向我证明

your drug is safe uh would such a person

你的药物是安全的，呃，阻止了这种药物在美国境内成为一个问题

be tolerated if they said to fizer to

如果他们对 Mna 说，这样的人是可以容忍的，

Mna uh I don't think that these

呃，我认为这些

platforms are actually sufficiently

平台实际上没有经过充分的

tested and you're asking to undergo a

测试，

huge experiment when the virus appears

当病毒似乎

to be targeting the elderly and obese uh

针对老年人和肥胖者时，你要求进行一项大规模的实验，呃，

in fact the problem is is that we've

事实上 问题是，我们已经

diminished scientists so far below

将科学家的地位远远低于

administrators that we have to seek

管理员，因此我们必须寻求

their permission and I think what it's

他们的许可，我认为现在

time for is a scientific revolution in

是一场科学革命的时候了，

which we tell the administrators to get

我们告诉管理员

the hell out of our Labs right right so

从我们的实验室滚出去，对吧，所以我也这样

so am I am I to hear that the um because

我是我听到这个，嗯，因为

I take it that the usual line is that

我认为通常的说法是，

covid though obviously wreaking havoc

虽然新冠病毒显然造成了严重破坏，但它

was a great opportunity for boosting

是一个很好的机会，可以提高

people's interests in science and

人们对科学的兴趣，并

boosting some progress on certain

促进某些

specific areas sure do you realize that

特定领域的一些进展，你肯定知道，

with 12 nucleotides you can shut down

有了 12 个核苷酸，你 可以关闭

planet Earth and that you have a child

地球，你有一个孩子

who might have access to PCR and and

可以使用 PCR，

maybe chrisper C9 of course you can

也许还有 chrisper C9 当然你可以让

interest anybody in science but the

任何人对科学感兴趣，但

problem is this idea science is

问题是这个想法科学很

interesting take an interest in science

有趣对科学感兴趣

it's a terrible idea science is

这是一个可怕的想法科学是

extremely frustrating but it's got very

非常令人沮丧，但它的

high leverage yeah we should actually be

影响力非常高 是的，我们实际上应该

truthful about science and we're not

诚实地对待科学，但我们并没有

being truthful we're trying to make

说实话，我们正在努力让

science into something that is mildly

科学变得有点

interesting yeah and you're you're

有趣，是的，你正在为

signing up people for careers that are

人们签约从事这样的职业

incredibly frustrating uh decreasing in

令人难以置信的沮丧呃声望下降

Prestige uh and in fact one of the few

呃事实上

things you can do with science is shut

你可以用科学做的为数不多的事情之一就是

down a planet with fair fair ease so so

相当轻松地关闭一个星球所以

do you think that um one way to get

你认为嗯是一种方式来

across this lesson about the power of

学习关于杠杆力量的教训

the leverage of science which has been

lost in the communication is doing the

在传播中迷失的科学肯定是在研究

history of science sure but that might

科学史，但这可能

include for example the kid who

包括例如那个孩子，他从

scavenged uh smoke detectors for their

烟雾探测器中寻找

radioactive element amorium and built a

放射性元素钐，并建造了一个

working reactor I think in Brooklyn

工作反应堆，我认为在布鲁克林是对的，

right right so in other words if you're

所以换句话说，如果 你会说

going it's like trying to sell

这就像试图推销

skateboarding skateboarding is an

滑板滑板是

activity for n duells that sometimes uh

一项决斗的活动有时呃

you know results in greatness yeah um

你知道会带来伟大是的嗯

trying to tell people don't take drugs

试图告诉人们不要吸毒

without mentioning that drugs are fun

而不提及毒品很有趣

you know if we're constantly lying to

你知道如果我们不断撒谎 对

people uh there's no opportunity to

人们来说，呃，没有机会

actually reacquaint ourselves with the

真正重新认识

Wonder of Science and I think that part

科学的奇迹，我认为部分

of the problem is this idea of

问题在于这种对

pro-social good for you science is too

社会有利的想法，科学的

narrowly constructed you can get any

构建过于狭隘，你可以让任何

child allowed to play with a chemistry

孩子玩化学

kit where can have potentially dangerous

套件 那里可能会发生潜在危险的

explosions or you can turn something

爆炸，或者你可以将

into a fountain of Goo you know those

某些东西变成粘性喷泉，你知道这些

things sell themselves the real problem

东西会自行出售，真正的问题

is trying to interest people in uh

是试图让人们对呃

Dulles Church science that is within

杜勒斯教堂科学感兴趣，这

keeping with all of the restrictions

符合我们将要实施的所有限制

that we're going to place on our

放在我们

brightest Minds yeah yeah that makes

最聪明的头脑中是的，这是

sense so maybe let's turn to the

有道理的，所以也许

biographical now right now we're talking

现在让我们转向传记，现在我们正在讨论

about how to get people interested in

如何让人们对

science what was your first interest in

科学感兴趣，你对科学的第一个兴趣是什么，

science how did you begin sure it might

你是如何开始确定它可能

have come from my grandfather who was

来自我的 祖父

probably acknowledged to be the smartest

可能被认为是

person in our extended family but who

我们大家庭中最聪明的人，但

could not finish University probably had

无法完成大学学业，

pretty severe learning issues uh in

在现代背景下可能有相当严重的学习问题，

modern context and he simply looked at

他只是

the world through an extremely

通过极其

humanistic and very scientific lens and

人文和非常科学的镜头来看待世界，

so just coming to understand that

所以刚刚来到 明白

everything could be open the world was

一切都可以开放，世界是

open source and user serviceable you

开源的，用户可服务的，你

could open any panel and try to

可以打开任何面板，尝试

understand what made a flower tick or uh

了解是什么让花朵滴答作响，或者呃，

what you were seeing during a meteor

你在流星雨期间看到了什么，

shower so I think that was incredibly

所以我认为这是令人

empowering and then I think that um I

难以置信的授权，然后我认为 嗯，我

made a radical decision not to listen to

做出了一个激进的决定，不去倾听

my learning differences in school and so

我在学校的学习差异，所以

while school was telling me that I was

当学校告诉我我

not very smart uh I just decided that

不是很聪明时，呃，我只是认为

school was the problem and I was not and

学校是问题所在，而我不是，

so I followed that path and that battle

所以我遵循了这条道路和那场战斗

probably for me yeah I mean I think one

可能对我来说是的，我的意思是我认为

of the most interesting things I've

我今天学到的最有趣的事情之一

learned today is that you're not the

是你不是

first person to say that to me in these

第一个在这些采访中对我说

interviews that's been a running theme

这一直是一个主题的人

actually well we're actually sort of an

实际上我们实际上是一个

the tiny number of

survivors of the school Wars because

学校战争的幸存者人数很少，因为

schools try to Stamp Out anyone with the

学校试图消灭任何有

learning difference and I believe that

学习差异的人，我相信

these things aren't disabilities but

这些东西不是残疾，而是

they're superpowers with negative

具有负

externalities and what they do is they

外部性的超级大国，他们所做的就是

tease out teaching disabilities on the

在学校中剔除教学障碍 作为

part of the teaching profession the

教师职业的一部分，

teaching profession doesn't want to have

教师职业不希望出现

teaching disabilities so they turn

教学障碍，因此他们

around and create learning disabilities

转而创造了学习障碍，而

which are actually non-existent for the

这些障碍实际上在大多数情况下是不存在的，

most part right right so one thing that

所以

I think a theme that has been running

我认为贯穿整个教学的主题是一件事

through the interview is this idea of um

面试的想法是，嗯，

you know stepping back and allowing

你知道，退后一步，让

extraordinary people giving them the

非凡的人为他们提供他们

resource they need and allowing them to

需要的资源，让他们

essentially Express themselves to find

本质上表达自己，找到

this kind of great scientific moments um

这种伟大的科学时刻，

and so it it sort of leads us to this

所以它有点让我们想到这个

question about well what what in the

问题，即什么是

lives of these people is sort of

这些人的生活中的什么

contributing to that and one one thing I

因素促成了这一点，我在想的一件事

was thinking was well you know what are

是，你知道

what are the relationship that these

这些

people have to Faith right so I mean

人与信仰正确的关系是什么，所以我的意思是，

maybe could we could we talk about the

也许我们可以谈论这种

relationship um in in your work between

关系吗？ 在你的工作中，

between how you

你如何

see what you do and um whether Judaism

看待自己所做的事情，以及犹太教是否在其中

has played a role in that or driven that

发挥了作用，或者以

in any particular way right so I'm a I'm

某种特定的方式推动了这一点，所以我

I'm an atheist who prays right and you

是一个无神论者，祈祷正确，你

have to recognize that when you have an

必须这样做 认识到，当

extraordinary contribution of a small

一小

group of people like the parses in India

群人（比如印度的解析者）做出非凡贡献时，

that there's something in the cultural

文化习俗中的某些东西会

practices that leads to an outsized

导致巨大的

outcome right and so would it would be

结果，因此，

entirely irrational if Jews were to

如果犹太人

throw over the irrationality of their

抛弃非理性，那将是完全不合理的。 他们

own tradition if that was in fact a

自己的传统，如果这实际上是一个

demonstrable scientifically reproducible

可证明的、可科学复制的

Advantage so my belief about this is

优势，所以我对此的信念是，

that there's something in the ethics the

在伦理学和

legal discipline from ttic thinking that

法律纪律中，有一些来自军事思维的东西

actually grooves the Mind quite well in

实际上很好地引导了人们的思想，特别是

particular for physics um I worry that

对于物理学来说，嗯，我担心

we've thrown over lots of things that we

我们已经抛出了 很多事情我们

now know not to be true but we didn't

现在知道不是真的，但我们不

understand that these were loadbearing

明白这些都是承重

um behaviors and that effectively we we

嗯行为，而且我们实际上把

knocked out the rotting pillars before

腐烂的柱子敲掉了，然后

replacing ing them with something else

用其他东西取代它们是的，

yeah so I mean when you when you were

所以我的意思是当你在的时候

thinking about this did you look at a

考虑到这一点，你是否考虑过一系列

range of practices and traditions um

的实践和传统，嗯，

because you say you're an atheist at

因为你说你是一个

praise right so you thought you thought

赞美的无神论者，所以你认为你思考

about how these practices are actually

过这些实践

incredibly important for developing the

对于发展

mind and giving yourself the space to

思想和给自己提供

come up with fantastic ideas and so

发挥的空间实际上是非常重要的 有着奇妙的想法等等，

forth um you know did you did you look

嗯，你知道你是否研究

at a number of different practices with

过作为无神论者参与的许多不同的实践，

which to engage as an atheist or was it

或者

simply obvious that Judaism was going to

很明显犹太教将会

be I think that I had an intuition that

成为我认为我有一个直觉，那就是

there was a chomskian preg grammar of

有一个乔姆斯基主义者

religion and metaphysics right and that

宗教和形而上学的语法正确，

you have a receptor that has to be bound

你有一个必须被束缚的受体，

it cannot remain Unbound so the great

它不能保持不受束缚，所以

fallacy of atheism is is that it is safe

无神论的最大谬误是，

and adaptive to try to leave the

尝试让

receptor Unbound because the issue is

受体不受束缚是安全和适应性的，因为问题是

that there is some metaphysics that is

存在 一些形而上学将与

going to bind to that receptor whether

该受体结合，无论

or not the truth value of that

该形而上学的真实价值是否

metaphysics can be decided yeah uh given

可以确定是的，考虑到

that I found that I happened to be in

我发现我碰巧

possession of one of the more benign

拥有一种

things that could bind that receptor so

可以结合该受体的更良性的东西，所以

just the way it's very it's very

只是 方式是非常

unlikely that you speak no language at

不可能的，你根本不会说任何语言，

all right and uh you have to probably

呃，你必须以

address that some way and recognize that

某种方式解决这个问题，并认识到

that human need for

人类对

metaphysics should Cloud your reason as

形而上学的需求应该尽可能

little as possible and as much as is

少地和尽可能多地遮蔽你的理性，这

necessary right brilliant well I think

很好，非常好，我 我认为

we should wrap it up there thank you

我们应该结束它非常感谢你

very much thank you really enjoyed it

非常感谢你真的很喜欢它